Wagner a Anti-semite/nazi???

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Chassz has answered this question well. But let me add this - if you are really interested in the question of Wagner's antisemitism, read 'Wagner and Philosophy' by Brian Magee, especially the chapter specifically dealing with the anti-semitism. That will answer all your questions.

One brief comment regarding the supposed anti-semitism in his operas ... well, if you WANT to find it in them, then you will find it in them. The approach to detecting anti-semetism in Wagner's operas adopts methods similar to those once employed by the Spanish Inquisition in detecting heresy. If you really want to find it, and you use your imagination, you will find it.

I haven't read Brian Magee, but Cosima recorded in her Diaries, in 1879:

Richard is in favor of expelling them entirely. We laugh to think that it really seems as if his article on the Jews (Judaism in music) marked the beginning of this struggle.
When news of Russian massacre of the Jews in August 1881 reached Wagner, she recorded him saying: That is the only way it can be done - by throwing these people out and thrashing them.

I don't see how anyone can deny Wagner's antisemetism, but on the other hand the music is full of genius and should be appreciated on a different level - after all no one reacts in horror to the work of Gesualdo or Benvenuto Cellini, both murderers.

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'Man know thyself'

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Peter:
I haven't read Brian Magee, but Cosima recorded in her Diaries, in 1879:

Richard is in favor of expelling them entirely. We laugh to think that it really seems as if his article on the Jews (Judaism in music) marked the beginning of this struggle.
When news of Russian massacre of the Jews in August 1881 reached Wagner, she recorded him saying: That is the only way it can be done - by throwing these people out and thrashing them.

Yes, but quoting snippets of Wagner is like quoting snippets from the Bible - there will always be another passage somewhere else that will totally contradict it. I could also quote passages from Cosima's diaries in which Wagner is recorded (late in his life) as showing remorse for his anti-semetism. Wagner was a man full of contradictions - it is true that he had many very close friends who were Jews. That doesn't EXCUSE his other instances of anti-Jewish venom, but it does show that his anti-semitism was, like many things in his character, inconsistent.

A problem facing all modern people in understanding anti-semetism in history is that we always see it now through the post-1945 filter. We look at it in full knowledge of the holocaust, that event which finally and irrefutably demonstrated anti-semetism to be morally abhorrent, and dangerous. But people living in the 19th century were unaware of what was going to happen. I honestly, and with all objectivity, believe that Wagner would have been aghast and horrified at the atrocities of Nazism if he could have caught a glimpse into the future - but Nazism was so hellishy horrible that it was almost impossible to forsee.

Certainly, Wagner was bigoted, and mean-spirited and spiteful towards Jewish people, but it is a gross error to equate his anti-semitism with the genocidal mania of the Nazis. The latter was in a different league altogether. For a much fuller analysis, again I thoroughly recomend reading Magee.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:

Yes, but quoting snippets of Wagner is like quoting snippets from the Bible - there will always be another passage somewhere else that will totally contradict it. I could also quote passages from Cosima's diaries in which Wagner is recorded (late in his life) as showing remorse for his anti-semetism. Wagner was a man full of contradictions - it is true that he had many very close friends who were Jews. That doesn't EXCUSE his other instances of anti-Jewish venom, but it does show that his anti-semitism was, like many things in his character, inconsistent.

A problem facing all modern people in understanding anti-semetism in history is that we always see it now through the post-1945 filter. We look at it in full knowledge of the holocaust, that event which finally and irrefutably demonstrated anti-semetism to be morally abhorrent, and dangerous. But people living in the 19th century were unaware of what was going to happen. I honestly, and with all objectivity, believe that Wagner would have been aghast and horrified at the atrocities of Nazism if he could have caught a glimpse into the future - but Nazism was so hellishy horrible that it was almost impossible to forsee.

Certainly, Wagner was bigoted, and mean-spirited and spiteful towards Jewish people, but it is a gross error to equate his anti-semitism with the genocidal mania of the Nazis. The latter was in a different league altogether. For a much fuller analysis, again I thoroughly recomend reading Magee.

I agree entirely that Wagner cannot be blamed for the Nazi holocaust, it would have happened without him and he was dead some 50 years before Hitler's rise. However to refer to Wagner's antisemitism as 'snippets' is complete denial of the facts - you say he showed remorse in later life, well in 1881, just 2 years before his death he produced his most venemous essay Know Thyself. This is Wagner’s second major antisemitic tract - and substantially more venonomus than the better known Judaism in Music. After that came Herodom and Christendom - It contains Wagner’s first antisemitic utterance based in ideas of blood.

Despite the fact that I see no defence for his views which were entirely consistent with later nazi ideology, his music (which I admire) is something apart. Had Wagner written no music, only those revolting essays, no one would seek to defend him - we have to separate the man from the music and not make excuses for the man because of the music.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-08-2004).]

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Peter:

Despite the fact that I see no defence for his views which were entirely consistent with later nazi ideology

To be anti-semetic does not necessarily equate to subscribing to the idealogy of German National Socialism. There are lots of different sorts of people I dislike (not, however, categorised according to race), but that doesn't mean I want them to be sent to concentration camps and gassed to death. So it is a mistake to say 'anti-semetic' (necessarily) = Nazi.

But you make the mistake of saying Wagner's idealogy was entirely consistent with Nazism. This is wrong. Wagner's personal philosophy went through two phases, neither of which resembled Nazism. In youth he was a socialist radical (at the other far end of the political spectrum). In later life he adopted as his own the philosophy of the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, whose views are the antithesis of Nazi thinking. To Schopenhauer, the root of all evil was Der Wille zum Leben, the Will to Life, the instinct for survival. This Will to Life he saw as negative and destructive, largely because it necessarily involves violence and oppression to other life forms (think of lions tearing apart little zebras). This negative view of the evolutionary instinct for survival is the mirror opposite of the Nazi's positive view of brutal social Darwinism. The very core of Schopenhauer's philosophy is the doctrine of compassion (Mitleid) as the 'foundation of morality'. This is hardly a Nazi ideal. Parsifal is all about this Schopenhauerian doctrine of Compassion (Parsifal is 'durch Mitleid wissend'), which is why Hitler banned performances of the opera, even at Bayreuth, from 1940 onwards.

And if only Hitler had been intelligent enough to understand the meaning of Der Ring des Nibelungen, he probably would have banned that as well. The moral to the story is that lust for power, at the expense of love for fellow man, leads to corruption, and ultimately, self-destruction.

So I hardly think that Wagner's views were 'entirely consistent' with those of Hitler.

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
To be anti-semetic does not necessarily equate to subscribing to the idealogy of German National Socialism. There are lots of different sorts of people I dislike (not, however, categorised according to race), but that doesn't mean I want them to be sent to concentration camps and gassed to death. So it is a mistake to say 'anti-semetic' (necessarily) = Nazi.

But you make the mistake of saying Wagner's idealogy was entirely consistent with Nazism. This is wrong. Wagner's personal philosophy went through two phases, neither of which resembled Nazism. In youth he was a socialist radical (at the other far end of the political spectrum). In later life he adopted as his own the philosophy of the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, whose views are the antithesis of Nazi thinking. To Schopenhauer, the root of all evil was Der Wille zum Leben, the Will to Life, the instinct for survival. This Will to Life he saw as negative and destructive, largely because it necessarily involves violence and oppression to other life forms (think of lions tearing apart little zebras). This negative view of the evolutionary instinct for survival is the mirror opposite of the Nazi's positive view of brutal social Darwinism. The very core of Schopenhauer's philosophy is the doctrine of compassion (Mitleid) as the 'foundation of morality'. This is hardly a Nazi ideal. Parsifal is all about this Schopenhauerian doctrine of Compassion (Parsifal is 'durch Mitleid wissend'), which is why Hitler banned performances of the opera, even at Bayreuth, from 1940 onwards.

And if only Hitler had been intelligent enough to understand the meaning of Der Ring des Nibelungen, he probably would have banned that as well. The moral to the story is that lust for power, at the expense of love for fellow man, leads to corruption, and ultimately, self-destruction.

So I hardly think that Wagner's views were 'entirely consistent' with those of Hitler.

I do applaud Steppenwolf's considered approach to this notoriously difficult area.
Wagner's attitude towards Jewish people was typified by the fluctuating nature of his relationship with the great Jewish violinist and composer of the time, Joseph Joachim. Wagner initially addressed him as 'Du' but later came to resent him, because he joined forces with Brahms in opposing the so called new German school of Wagner and Liszt. Brahms and Joachim published a famous letter in 1860 protesting against claims of Wagner that all important Geman musicians supported the new school.
Certainly it does seem that Wagner resented what he called Jewish influence and he thought that he had no part in the description that was given to him elsewhere as a musician of the future, a title he shared with Liszt. It is an immensely complex area and I think I have to say, even based on my own limited reading and listening to Wagner's music that any supposed equation between Wagner and National Socialism is very dubious and I wonder whether a lot of it may have been due to Wagner's personal aversion to Joachim.

If anyone is interested there is a brilliant book that makes some fascinating parallels in this area and it is called.
'The Jew of Linz, Wittgenstein, Hitler and their secret battle for the mind'
by, Kimberley Cornish.
My husband has read this book several times and has claimed it is one of the most stimulating books he has read for many years.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Amalie:

I do applaud Steppenwolf's considered approach to this notoriously difficult area.
Wagner's attitude towards Jewish people was typified by the fluctuating nature of his relationship with the great Jewish violinist and composer of the time, Joseph Joachim. Wagner initially addressed him as 'Du' but later came to resent him, because he joined forces with Brahms in opposing the so called new German school of Wagner and Liszt. Brahms and Joachim published a famous letter in 1860 protesting against claims of Wagner that all important Geman musicians supported the new school.
Certainly it does seem that Wagner resented what he called Jewish influence and he thought that he had no part in the description that was given to him elsewhere as a musician of the future, a title he shared with Liszt. It is an immensely complex area and I think I have to say, even based on my own limited reading and listening to Wagner's music that any supposed equation between Wagner and National Socialism is very dubious and I wonder whether a lot of it may have been due to Wagner's personal aversion to Joachim.

I am sorry Amalie, but Wagner was an anti-semite long before his association with Joachim (I believe his antipathy for Meyerbeer was greater, not that that would be an excuse for the inexcusable anyway) and in any case the 1860 manifesto was directed more at Liszt rather than Wagner.

I find it rather sad that attempts are being made here to defend this side of his nature, a side that is well documented in his own words throughout the course of his life. A few examples - "I have cherished a long repressed resentment about this Jew money-world, and this hatred is as necessary to my nature as gall is to blood" (1851) "Cursed Jew scum" (1831) "All Jews should be burned at a performance of Nathan the Wise" (1881).

I suggest aside from reading Cosima's diaries - the essays Modern, what is German?, Judaism in music, Know thyself, Herodom and Christendom - you have it all in Wagner's own words.

Now when we come to the Nazis I agree there is a problem - Wagner cannot and should not be blamed for events 50 years after his death, I have made this point before. When we come to the music, again there is a problem because there can be little doubt that he was one of the greatest musical geniuses of the 2nd half of the 19th century - however it is dangerous and wrong to excuse his anti-semetism in light of the events that did occur.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-13-2004).]

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Peter:
I am sorry Amalie, but Wagner was an anti-semite long before his association with Joachim (I believe his antipathy for Meyerbeer was greater, not that that would be an excuse for the inexcusable anyway) and in any case the 1860 manifesto was directed more at Liszt rather than Wagner.

I find it rather sad that attempts are being made here to defend this side of his nature, a side that is well documented in his own words throughout the course of his life. A few examples - "I have cherished a long repressed resentment about this Jew money-world, and this hatred is as necessary to my nature as gall is to blood" (1851) "Cursed Jew scum" (1831) "All Jews should be burned at a performance of Nathan the Wise" (1881).

I suggest aside from reading Cosima's diaries - the essays Modern, what is German?, Judaism in music, Know thyself, Herodom and Christendom - you have it all in Wagner's own words.

Now when we come to the Nazis I agree there is a problem - Wagner cannot and should not be blamed for events 50 years after his death, I have made this point before. When we come to the music, again there is a problem because there can be little doubt that he was one of the greatest musical geniuses of the 2nd half of the 19th century - however it is dangerous and wrong to excuse his anti-semetism in light of the events that did occur.

I agree, Cosima was the nearest thing to an anti-semite so far as we generally define that word. She was really an unpleasant person. As I understand it, the problem with Wagner is that he was always blowing hot and cold about people and causes, he had no objection if Jewish people supported him, but if they didn't he then used any weapon to hand, especially their religion to berate them.
No one is making any excuses for the kind of offensive language that comes from his diaries. And then on the other hand, we have Wagner the great artist, who in his essays shows such a profound understanding of not only art, but how the artist works, and then of course, where does Parsifal fit in and Wagner's repeated statement about how he sympathized with the suffering world?

A.

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~ Unsterbliche Geliebte ~

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 06-13-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:

So I hardly think that Wagner's views were 'entirely consistent' with those of Hitler.

I was referring specifically to Herodom and Christendom (1881) where I doubt Hitler would have had much difficulty in agreeing with the following -

"We cannot withold our acknowledgment that the human family consists of irredemiably disparate races, whereof the noble could rule the ignoble, yet never raise them to their level by commixture, but simply sink to theirs. Indeed this one relation might suffice to explain our fall. . .Whilst yellow races have viewed themselves as sprung from monkeys, the white traced back their origin to gods, and deemed themselves marked out for rulership. It has been made quite clear that we should have no History of Man at all, had there been no movements, creations, and achievements of the white man. . . Incomparably fewer in number than the lower races, the ruin of the white races may be referred to their having been obliged to mix with them; whereby, as remarked already, they suffered more from the loss of their purity than the others could gain by the ennobling of their blood. . . Nowhere in history do the root qualities of the Aryan race show forth more plainly than in the contact of the last pure-bred Germanic branches with the falling Roman world. . . . .
It was a weighty feature of the Christian Church that none but sound and healthy persons were admitted to the vow of total world renunciation; any bodily defect, not to say mutilation, unfitted them. Manifestly, this vow was to be regarded as issuing from the most heroic of all possible resolves, and he who sees in it a "cowardly self-surrender" -- as someone recently suggested, may bravely exult in his own self-retention, but had best not meddle any further with things that don't concern him. . . .
It certainly may be right to charge this purblind dullness of our public spirit to the vitiation of our blood -- not only by departure from the natural food of man, but above all by the tainting of the hero-blood of the noblest races with that of former cannibals now trained to be the business agents of Society."



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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amalie:

I agree, Cosima was the nearest thing to an anti-semite so far as we generally define that word. She was really an unpleasant person.

She wasn't 'near', she was antisemetic by any definition - a most unpleasant daughter of dear old Liszt.

As I understand it, the problem with Wagner is that he was always blowing hot and cold about people and causes, he had no objection if Jewish people supported him, but if they didn't he then used any weapon to hand, especially their religion to berate them.

Even the nazis had no qualms about using Jewish people if it suited their purpose. I'm not equating Wagner with them, but again this is no defense.

And then on the other hand, we have Wagner the great artist, who in his essays shows such a profound understanding of not only art, but how the artist works



Judaism in music, Know thyself, Herodom and Christendom do not show 'profound understanding', they reveal racist bigotry as my excerpt in the above post shows.

I understand that it is difficult to equate Wagner the man with Wagner the great artist and I'm not someone who condemns him or his music - I just think it is important to ackowledge these uncomfortable facts rather than excuse them. We like our great artists to be somehow beacons of wisdom and perfection and live up to the ideals we perceive in their works, in reality this is rarely the case.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-14-2004).]

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Peter:

I understand that it is difficult to equate Wagner the man with Wagner the great artist and I'm not someone who condemns him or his music - I just think it is important to ackowledge these uncomfortable facts rather than excuse them. We like our great artists to be somehow beacons of wisdom and perfection and live up to the ideals we perceive in their works, in reality this is rarely the case.

And the same goes to Bruckner, who raped a 13 year old girl (in his memoirs before his death). If he did or didn't do this (he constantly admited sins, no one knows if he did them or not) doesn't matter, what matters is that we often see Bruckner as a victim, maybe he wasn't such a good guy after all. Even though his music was genious and, as far as I'm concerned, I like Bruckner the music and Wagner the music.
I don't care much about them outside the artistic field. Music has this ability to be only music, beautiful and pure because it's only music, not the musician behind it. There are other times when the musician behinds it is very important (Beethoven's case) but only when he gives himself completely into his music, more than just doing it he is it. Not the case with Wagner though (as I see it). In his case his music was his music and that's all, it wasn't him. Him he left to his essays.

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"Aaaaagnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi... PAM, PAM PA RAM PAM PAM..." (Missa Solemnis)

[This message has been edited by Rutradelusasa (edited 06-14-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Rutradelusasa (edited 06-14-2004).]

[AndrewMyers]

In his case his music was his music and that's all, it wasn't him. Him he left to his essays.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I see what you mean but I don't think his music was any less 'him' than his essays. Maybe in his music he was able to express a part of himself he couldn't express any other way.

[dnleeson0]

Let me suggest that some of Wagner's music, despite all statement to the contrary, is rife with enormously subtle antisemitic content. Barenboim once said that "Wagner's music is not antisemitic" but it is disturbing for such a talented musician to know so little about the historic content of 3 of the Ring operas, Meistersinger, Flying Dutchman, and Parsifal.

There are six explicitly antisemitic topics that Wagner had in the Ring and Meistersinger. They dealt with feet, smell, sight, speech, lack of artisitic ability, and the perils of race mixing. I would like to give just one detailed example. If there is interest, I can give some of the others, too.

Take feet: in Meistersinger, Beckmesser stumbles and staggers. In the Ring, the gnome Alberich trips and falls. So how can this behavior be related to antisemitism?

In the middle ages, it was believed that Jews, as the agents and minions of the devil, had goats feet. You could not see them, of course, because they were disguised by footware, but Jews had cloven feet. As a result of this deformity, the limped, staggered, stumbled, and tripped. In Austria, the belief was prevalent, that the most important reason given for Jews to be expelled from the Austrian army was weak feet.

In the Ring particularly, the unVolk are constantly stumbling. Beckmesser in Meistersinger cannot dance. He stumbles and staggers, this in contrast with the graceful dancing of the towns people who are not unVolk at all. They are very much Volk.

This kind of medieval muckraking is no longer even understood in the contemporary world, so we have no reference point about why Alberich in the Ring stumbles. But people in the 19th century believed it, as did Wagner.

Alberich stumbles because Wagner wants him, as an ugly hateful gnome, to have many of the features of the Jew, and that includes his inability to walk gracefully.

The matters of smell, sight, speech, lack of poetic talen, and dangers of race mixing are all equally subtle and, in every case, are Wagner's diatribe against the Jew.

It matters not to me that he was an antisemite. Many people were. But in Wagner's case, he embedded his hateful ideas right in the warp and woof of his music dramas.

[AndrewMyers]

Alberich may stumble. And he may have a love for gold. And he may indeed have been intended to represent a Jew. But he is portrayed as much as a a victim as a villain - he turns to hate as a result of rejection by the Rhinemaidens, and is totally manipulated by Wotan - who is clearly the prime mover of all the mess that goes on in the Ring, and clearly not a Jew.

Wagner might have been an antisemite and might even have intended these views to be present in the operas (although I really do doubt it - if he'd wanted to write an antisemitic opera, he could have been 100 times clearer than some reference to goat's feet) but surely the mark of any great thinker is that they allow for the possibility that they may be wrong - there's enough complexity in the Ring to enable it to be interpreted in ways that Wagner might not have consciously intended.

[Rutradelusasa]

And I guess if Wagner wanted to show something with Beckmesser, it would have been Hanslick, not jews.

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"Aaaaagnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi... PAM, PAM PA RAM PAM PAM..." (Missa Solemnis)

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by dnleeson0:
Let me suggest that some of Wagner's music, despite all statement to the contrary, is rife with enormously subtle antisemitic content. Barenboim once said that "Wagner's music is not antisemitic" but it is disturbing for such a talented musician to know so little about the historic content of 3 of the Ring operas, Meistersinger, Flying Dutchman, and Parsifal.

There are six explicitly antisemitic topics that Wagner had in the Ring and Meistersinger. They dealt with feet, smell, sight, speech, lack of artisitic ability, and the perils of race mixing. I would like to give just one detailed example. If there is interest, I can give some of the others, too.

Take feet: in Meistersinger, Beckmesser stumbles and staggers. In the Ring, the gnome Alberich trips and falls. So how can this behavior be related to antisemitism?

In the middle ages, it was believed that Jews, as the agents and minions of the devil, had goats feet. You could not see them, of course, because they were disguised by footware, but Jews had cloven feet. As a result of this deformity, the limped, staggered, stumbled, and tripped. In Austria, the belief was prevalent, that the most important reason given for Jews to be expelled from the Austrian army was weak feet.

In the Ring particularly, the unVolk are constantly stumbling. Beckmesser in Meistersinger cannot dance. He stumbles and staggers, this in contrast with the graceful dancing of the towns people who are not unVolk at all. They are very much Volk.

This kind of medieval muckraking is no longer even understood in the contemporary world, so we have no reference point about why Alberich in the Ring stumbles. But people in the 19th century believed it, as did Wagner.

Alberich stumbles because Wagner wants him, as an ugly hateful gnome, to have many of the features of the Jew, and that includes his inability to walk gracefully.

The matters of smell, sight, speech, lack of poetic talen, and dangers of race mixing are all equally subtle and, in every case, are Wagner's diatribe against the Jew.

It matters not to me that he was an antisemite. Many people were. But in Wagner's case, he embedded his hateful ideas right in the warp and woof of his music dramas.

Hello, all. A bit of a pleasant surprise to see a lengthy discussion on Wagner going on here without my participation. (But really why should I think he needs me to keep his infamy alive?)

For those who are new here and don't know me, I am a formerly active poster and Wagner fan on this board who has gone down to the land of the dwarfs to work on my own sculpture and painting and only once in a while poke his nose back in here.

More to the point, dnleeson0, I found your example of feet very interesting and would like to hear your complete summary. Also I'd like to know if these are your own observations or if you read them somewhere. Peter or Chris, if you think this is too off-topic please say so, and then I would ask dnleeson0 to please kindly write to me at my email address chas.zz@verizon.net. Thank you.

Chaszz

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 06-18-2004).]