Wagner a Anti-semite/nazi???

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Likely because Bach's book about eliminating Jewish influences was suppressed by Lutheran apologists for him, you suppose?

Well, I think that if such Lutheran apologists existed they would be too busy trying to supress the writings of Martin Luther, about 'eliminating Jewish influences', and much else besides. Much of what Luther wrote is bad enough to make Wagner look very tolerant by comparison.

Bach of course never wrote anti-semetic literature. He didn't need to. His hero Martin Luther had already done it for him. Yes, the words in St John Passion come from the Bible. But I think if you listen to that chorus, 'Kreuzige ihn', you will hear Bach compounding and emphasising the anti-semetic message with the very dramatic music.

Other composers have been anti-semetic. Stravinsky, for instance. Mozart made anti-Jewish comments in some of his letters. Who remembers that?

Don't take this as a criticism of Bach, Mozart, or Stravinsky - that's not my point. The point is that the way so many people attack Wagner (and, absurdly, his music) makes it seem as if Wagner was the first ever anti-semite, and that he somehow invented anti-semetism. In fact, the whole history of Europe is stained by anti-semetism, especially in the 19th century. Wagner shares in the moral fault, but it is wrong to place it ALL on him personally. Furthermore, it is patently ridiculous to see his music as anti-semetic dogma, for reasons given above.

[dnleeson0]

Nope. You are not there yet. And I suspect you never will get there because your mind is made up. You say:

"The argument for 'coded' references to anti-semitism in Wagner's music-dramas seems essentially to rest on the premise that since Wagner held anti-semetic views, then any villian portrayed in is works must of necessity be Jewish."

That may well be your view, but it is not mine. My view is that Wagner was an antisemite and put as much antisemitic crap within the constructs of his stories that he could put in without making them political tracts. (By the way, the spelling is "antisemitic" and not "antisemetic" as you have consisistently misspelled it.)

As for the matter of Wagner's reference to sight and race mixing, your conclusion that I must be referring to Parsifal is not correct. And having concluded what you thought I was going to say, you then give a diatribe against a view not expressed.

Nope. Such material pervades The Ring but I think our conversation on this subject has reached about the most it ever will reach. Both of us have a great affection for Wagner's music. But you see it differently than I, and I no longer listen to it because of the hateful messages it carries below the surface, messages that you neither see nor believe when suggested to exist.

Discussion over. Thank you.

[Beyond Within]

Why so much hostility? I like this board because people here are very respectful to eachother, moreso than anywhere else on the internet I have found. I hope this place stays that way.

"Mozart made anti-Jewish comments in some of his letters. Who remembers that? "

Really? Thats pretty hilarious. I always thought of Mozart as so oblivious and jolly that any sort of hostility, especially in such a serious topic as racism, would ever cross his mind. I need to read those letters...

After WW2 all anti-semitism, and all Evil(tm) has been assigned to Adolf Hitler. Its easier for the propaganda machine to convince as many people as possible that anti-semitism can only spring from pure evil, and that pure evil is Hitler (making it more than one person is difficult for people to remember). The Jews dont want people to know that anti-semitism was rampant up until after WW2 in all parts of the world. Because then we will ask...why? Does anyone know that Henry Ford wrote a book based on the Protocols of the Eldars of Zion called "The International Jew" ? No, because anti-semitism can only be a product of pure evil, and Henry Ford is not pure evil, he was a genius who helped the Good American Democracy make more money. Hitler wanted to destroy Good American Democracy, so he needs to be pure evil. The Jews have a prominent place in America, thats why the propaganda is aimed in their interest. If there were a lot of National Socialists in the American government, then we would be told of Hitler as a person, not Pure Evil.

As for Wagner and anti-semitism, if you think that he is unfairly judged because of it, then I think you are vastly overestimating how much people care. Most people dont even know who Wagner is - let alone if he was racist. Wagner was a lot more blatent about his beliefs on this subject than most other musicians, so ofcourse he gets assigned more controversy. Mozart had no substantial 'intellectual' life outside of music. Mozart wasnt a writer like Wagner was. If all he had were passing remarks in letters as opposed to published anti-semitic works, then ofcourse it doesnt weigh as heavy against his character or its effect on his music. Especially since Mozart is popular for a lot more than Opera (which carries 'messages").

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 07-16-2004).]

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:

Really? Thats pretty hilarious. I always thought of Mozart as so oblivious and jolly that any sort of hostility, especially in such a serious topic as racism, would ever cross his mind. I need to read those letters...

But you must understand, that it is misleading to judge these things through the lense of late 20th century/early 21st century values and sensibilities. Since the holocaust, and since the liberal cultural revolution of the 60s, racism is now considered to be the Supreme Evil. It is like 'heresy' in the middle-ages, or 'witchcraft' in the 17th century, or sexual immorality in 19th century England. But this was not always the case. The very word 'racism' itself did not even exist before the mid-20th century. Nor did the concept. It was not even thought about. In Mozart's day it was not an issue. So we needn't be shocked that he (like probably most of his contempories) let slip a few idle comments, critical of Jews, or whomever, and thought nothing of it.

As for Wagner and anti-semitism, if you think that he is unfairly judged because of it, then I think you are vastly overestimating how much people care. Most people dont even know who Wagner is - let alone if he was racist.

Amongst the 'general public', no, nobody knows who Wagner is, nor do they care. Just as they don't know what the 'Eroica' is, nor care. But we are not talking about the general public. We are talking about people into classical music. And amongst a large number of such people, there is a prejudice against Wagner that is incredibily intense - amongst people who are otherwise very open minded. As the Grove dictionary of music says, there is more prejudice regarding Wagner's music than there is surrounding the work of any other artist in history. I think a big reason for this is the fact that Hitler like his music, so he has acquired guilt by association (I wonder what would have happend if Hitler had liked Shakespeare?). There is also a mysterious quality in Wagner's music itself, which tends to either attract or repel ... but that is the subject of another thread.
]

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by dnleeson0:

That may well be your view, but it is not mine. My view is that Wagner was an antisemite and put as much antisemitic crap within the constructs of his stories that he could put in without making them political tracts. (By the way, the spelling is "antisemitic" and not "antisemetic" as you have consisistently misspelled it.)

As for the matter of Wagner's reference to sight and race mixing, your conclusion that I must be referring to Parsifal is not correct. And having concluded what you thought I was going to say, you then give a diatribe against a view not expressed.

Nope. Such material pervades The Ring but I think our conversation on this subject has reached about the most it ever will reach. Both of us have a great affection for Wagner's music. But you see it differently than I, and I no longer listen to it because of the hateful messages it carries below the surface, messages that you neither see nor believe when suggested to exist.

Discussion over. Thank you.

Your discussion may be over, but I have yet to finish mine.

I repeat that your claims of hidden anti-semitism in Wagner's operas are, quite frankly, crack-pot. And it would be plainly obvious to all that such theories were crack-pot were they not covered in a veneer of moral righteousness. Who can question the moral superiority of a crusade against racial predjudice? Even if it is factually suspect, the sheer righteousness of the cause makes it almost impossible to dispute. It is risky to question accusations of racism, because racism has become such a taboo subject. One who questions accusations of racism therefore risks attracting an adverse inference that he is a racist sympathiser.

You have yet to provide any credible evidence that there are racist messages in any of Wagner's music-dramas. I would be interested to know how the Ring is racist, but since you have decreed the discussion closed I suppose you won't be telling us. As I understood it, the Ring libretto was written as a left-wing socialist (yes, socialist, NOT far-right) manifesto, but elements of Schopenhauerian philosophy were later added to it.

But why does this matter? Why do I continue to the argue the point? It matters for this reason. The Wagner-phobia, and the intense prejudice that surrounds Wagner's music, prejudice that is usually ridiculously misguided, prevents people from approaching it, listening to it, and enjoying it. It prevents the music from enriching their lives, as it has mine. It closes off some of the most magnificent works of art ever produced to so many people who are frightened off by the (false) image of Wagnerian music as violent, goose-stepping, far-right, militaristic bombast.

I ask this question again - Is a member of the audience at a Wagner music-drama, who has never heard of Wagner or his reputation before, likely to understand the 'coded' racist propoganda? Will he come away hostile to Jews, clearly percieving Albericht, or another of the villians, as an anti-semitic charicature? Will he get the point about race-mixing? Will he percieve ANYTHING to do with race at all, without the benefit of your explanations as to the 'hidden meaning'?

If the answer is no, then I have a further question. Even if what you say is correct, that Wagner tried to hide racist messages in his music dramas, if those messages are so obscure that nobody, attending a performance of Wagner's work at a theater, is likely to percieve them, then what does it matter? And furthermore, why spoil it for them? There are many Jewish people who love Wagner's music, including on this forum. Why spoil it for them? Does it really help them to point out that Albericht, or Beckmesser, or Mime, is probably an anti-semitic charicature? Why spoil their innocent enjoyment? What good does it do?

There is evidence that Lewis Carol had an unhealthy interest in young girls. Should we, then, stop children from reading 'Alice in Wonderland', and spoil their innocent enjoyment by explaining to them that the work is nothing more than the sick outpourings of a paedophile's imagination? Will we feel better and more morally righteous if we take this stand? Or are we perhaps spoiling innocent enjoyment for no good reason at all? If we did that, I suggest, then we are acting in a manner that is embarassing, and in bad taste. And similarly, I find all this harping on about hidden anti-semitism in Wagner music-dramas distasteful. Does it really help anyone to say, for instance, "Mime smells bad, and his is wizzened and ugly, therefore he MUST be a depiction of a Jew"? Leave it alone.

Wagner then man is dead. His life is of historical/biographical curiosity, but nothing more. But his wonderful music lives on. And it is capable of being enjoyed in an innocent manner, and taken at face value. So why can't we just leave it at that?

You may have stopped listening to his music, and you may feel a good sense of moral superiority for having done so. Perhaps your conscience now rests more easily. But I think it is a great shame that you have denied yourself a lifetime of enjoyment.


[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited 07-16-2004).]

[Amalie]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
I assume you refer to Parsifal, and believe, like that deluded propagandist Robert Gutman, that it is all about the evils of race mixing, an exposition of racialist philosophy of Count Gobinau. Trouble is, the libretto to Parsifal was completed in 1868, and Wagner only encountered Gobinau and his book, 'The Inequality of the Races', in 1880. So that theory is completely disproven. I wonder how familar you are with the philosophy of Arthur Schopenhauer? Not very much, I guess. If you were, you would realise that Parsifal has nothing to do with racialist theories, and everything to do with the philosophy of Schopenhauer.

After watching Parsifal with the knowledge that some critics have labeled the plot to center around racial cleansing I've come to my own conclusion that first, the music is great, and second, that there is more meaning to personal cleansing than racial cleansing. This is about personal redemption. Wagner knew he had imperfections. While I cannot bring myself to admire or even like the man I do find the music irrisistible.

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
{lots of stuff here}

Well put, and I might add, not only Jews listen to it today but some of the conductors who gave premières of Wagner's work were also Jewish. If they were any good at all then they studied those works throughly and gave them much thought, one cannot conduct Wagner without giving much attention to the score. Yet they didn't perceive anything, was the message so well coded that not even the conductor can find it? So what's the point on putting the message there? So what's the deal here, Wagner chose bad jewish conductors to do the first performances of his works even tough he hated Jews and was so critic about musicians who performed his things OR the message was not there? I mean, do you REALLY think that germans thought that only jewish people stunk?
Give it some thought, as Jesus said (I guess, I hope I'm not making a blasphemy ) :"Look and ye shall find.", and stop looking alright?

------------------
"Aaaaagnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi... PAM, PAM PA RAM PAM PAM..." (Missa Solemnis)




[This message has been edited by Rutradelusasa (edited 07-16-2004).]

[william jesset]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes, but the Nazis and Hitler cannot be blamed on Wagner who died 50 years before those events! Antisemetism was rife in Europe in the 19th century, Mahler for example only obtained the post of director at the Vienna opera by converting to christianity. Wagner's part rests on the notorious Judaism in music pamphlet of 1850, but in complete contradiction to this he entrusted Hermann Levi (a Jew) with the first performance of the highly christian Parsifal at Bayreuth in 1882.

Dear Posters,
These are not MUSICAL thoughts IE a higher plane of conciousness and not progressive at all. As we are in the NOW,only we have the power to change the NOW. Are you musical?
Do you sing "good morning' to your fellow man
or do you "grunt" GET AWAY! We need not remember nor how can we ever forget the Nazi's. This fascination with Hitler is UNHOLY, and Unfair to the music of WAGNER.
To put it to rest,You must understand history, it was the SIEGFRIED connection that
obsessed A.H. IE the myth of the hero as Savior for a race etc.
Please, end of this distasteful disscussion
its a disservice to all. Be a hero and have tolerance and respect for yourself by respecting the least of men,a simple kindness
is the HIGHEST act of man. The more you do this the universe will feed your mind body and soul and the more respect you fellow man will have for you.
To quote BEETHOVEN;
'Freedom and progress are the AIM,in the world of art ,as in the whole of great CREATION'.
so free yourself in art

[Beyond Within]

The perception of anything really abstract as it pertains to music is usually because of biases that the listener has when entering that world - i.e. the Placebo Effect. Its really impossible to objectively say what really was intended with what, because we dont have anything by Wagner that explicitly states such about his works, but we also dont know that that wasnt in his subconcious when he created the works. We also dont know the extend of its application. Maybe there are a few 'inside jokes' in his music, minor subtleties which mock people we could never know since we didnt exist in that time period. So its silly to me to polarize the issue completely, one way or the other, and pretend far fetched speculation comes anywhere close to the realm of objective fact.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
not only Jews listen to it today but some of the conductors who gave premières of Wagner's work were also Jewish.

Many of the very greatest Wagnerian conductors have been Jewish. There is a whole long list of them. My favourite modern Wagnerian conductor, Daniel Barenboim, is Israeli. Wagner himself even chose a Jew to conduct the premiere and first production of Parsifal (which would be a very odd thing to do, if, as some suggest, Parsifal contains 'coded' anti-semitic messages! Surely a composer will want a conductor to understand his work intimately, inside and out, to do it justice). And Wagner's music has been admired by many Jewish musicians and composers, including Mahler and Shoenberg. It was Mahler who once wrote, "In music there is Beethoven and Wagner - and after them, nobody".

[sean82uk]

I think you have misquoted me slightly, you cannot blame Wagner for Nazism, that is absurd.
But certain things that Wagnarian seized, Hitler also seized and the fact Wagner was anti-Semite made Wagner Hitler's ideological hero.
Those theories of Teutonic knights, Siegried etc..
It all fell neatly into place for Hitler.
Wagner does seem a vile person however regardless of his anti-Semitism if the following quotes are to go buy:

There was also something messianic about Wagner himself, a degree of megalomania that approached actual lunacy and that raised the concept of the artist-as-a-hero to a unprecedented degree.
As a human being he was frightening. Amoral, hedonistic, selfish virulently racist, arrogant, filled with gospels of the superman (the superman naturally being Wagner) and the superiority of the German race, he stands for all that is unpleasant in Human character.

-The Lives Of The Great Composers-Harold C. Schonberg

He demanded Money from people, wrote insane articles about Beethoven's skull size etc..

[This message has been edited by sean82uk (edited 07-19-2004).]

[This message has been edited by sean82uk (edited 07-19-2004).]

[Steppenwolf]

You must understand that, as with his music, people tended to either love Wagner the man (adore him), or absolutely hate him. You have quoted someone who disliked him. But I could also quote some of those who loved him.

As for the teutonic themes in his music-dramas, please remember that German mythology and culture does not necessary = Nazism. Nazism took nationalism to extremes, by using it to excuse violence to other cultures. But there is nothing inherently evil in celebrating traditional German culture, and traditional German mythology - so long, as with ALL cultures, it is balanced by respect for others (Hitler did so much damage that Germans are now ashamed of their culture - but they shouldn't be). And Wagner was hardly Xenophobic and closed off to other cultures. Parsifal, for instance, is set in Spain. Wagner was also fascinated by Buddhism (he had a statue of the Buddha in his living room at his house Wahnfried), and other eastern philosophies/religions, eg. Hinduism. At one stage he planned to write an opera, set in ancient India, about a group of Buddhist monks, as they journey towards spiritual enlightenment (he abandoned this project when he realised that he could condense these themes into the one work, Parsifal, instead).

As for the 'superman' reference, that was Nietzsche's idea, not Wagner's. Siegfried was intended to represent a youthful left-wing revolutionary who overthrows the old establishment and aristocracy (represented by the Gods of Valhalla), in order to usher in a new age of equality, peace, humanity and free love (I am not making this up!). The actual historical facts hardly equate with the image of a ultra right-wing, goose-stepping, flag waving, militaristic fascist. And yet when most people think of Wagnerian music, this is what they think of. It couldn't be more wrong.

[ruudp]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
You must understand that, as with his music, people tended to either love Wagner the man (adore him), or absolutely hate him. You have quoted someone who disliked him. But I could also quote some of those who loved him.

As for the teutonic themes in his music-dramas, please remember that German mythology and culture does not necessary = Nazism. Nazism took nationalism to extremes, by using it to excuse violence to other cultures. But there is nothing inherently evil in celebrating traditional German culture, and traditional German mythology - so long, as with ALL cultures, it is balanced by respect for others (Hitler did so much damage that Germans are now ashamed of their culture - but they shouldn't be). And Wagner was hardly Xenophobic and closed off to other cultures. Parsifal, for instance, is set in Spain. Wagner was also fascinated by Buddhism (he had a statue of the Buddha in his living room at his house Wahnfried), and other eastern philosophies/religions, eg. Hinduism. At one stage he planned to write an opera, set in ancient India, about a group of Buddhist monks, as they journey towards spiritual enlightenment (he abandoned this project when he realised that he could condense these themes into the one work, Parsifal, instead).

As for the 'superman' reference, that was Nietzsche's idea, not Wagner's. Siegfried was intended to represent a youthful left-wing revolutionary who overthrows the old establishment and aristocracy (represented by the Gods of Valhalla), in order to usher in a new age of equality, peace, humanity and free love (I am not making this up!). The actual historical facts hardly equate with the image of a ultra right-wing, goose-stepping, flag waving, militaristic fascist. And yet when most people think of Wagnerian music, this is what they think of. It couldn't be more wrong.

Steppenwolf,
I *as the humble starter of this topic* have read and read trough this increasingly interesting topic and come slowly to this question..What got you in to wagner the first time What about his music makes you such an ardent and fiery defender of wagner.I never knew much about him and this post REALLY helped me understand him better I'd also like to thank EVERY poster for their different opinions, facts and views.I'm starting to create a picture of this man who was a German in a time antisemitism grew widespread and was widely accepted.He embraced the idea of one Germany as Germany was still suffering and trying to unite..on his shoulders lay the immense task to create something PURELY german in which ALL german people could reflect and see themselves and this "task" set about some *a lot* Arrogance by wagner who got more and more confident as too being the most german of man..How the nazi's manipulated this quite innocent attempt to create unity is a WHOLE different story altogether.

This is the picture I've drawn from wagner out of your comments and what little I know about german history taught at school, I'm anxious too see what you're *all of you* responses are.

awaiting feedback ,
Ruud