Wagner a Anti-semite/nazi???

[dbass]

It is a grave mistake to allow tradition to become holy or inspire awe, for the older it becomes and the more remote is it's origin, the more confusing ..Freddy W. Nietzsche

If you think Hitler corrupted Wagner, read what Nietzsche's sister (E.Forster-Nietzsche) did to her brothers work. She was one of the early and original Nazis, founding the new Vahalla in Paraguay.

What is there to like about Wagner? Libretto?
Libretto analysis? Blocking and stage direction? Costumes? Sets? Lighting? ..or
his musical ideas (notes on the page)? Wagner's timbers come from a place far removed from all that. If you've never be a player of Wagner in a large capable ensemble,
then I guess thats why you cannot know.

a hui ho
db

[Peter]

Originally posted by dbass:
If you've never be a player of Wagner in a large capable ensemble,
then I guess thats why you cannot know.

a hui ho
db

Hmm, I am a musician myself but I think it a little patronising to suggest those who haven't performed Wagner cannot understand!
Would you apply this logic to Beethoven and other composers as well, or is Wagner so above them? Leaving aside the rather unpleasant Wagnerian personality and great though his musical achievements are, he does not approach Beethoven's universality, but that might be the fact that I'm an ignorant pianist rather than an orchestral player!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Peter or Chris, if you think this is too off-topic please say so, and then I would ask dnleeson0 to please kindly write to me at my email address chas.zz@verizon.net. Thank you.

Chaszz

Nice to hear from you again, no surprise that Wagner brought you back! I do think though that racial qualities and feet are not really a topic for this forum!


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'Man know thyself'

[dbass]

Aloha Friends
Peter we have no argument about'universality'
and Beethoven.

Wagner created his own 'universe' based on
Norse and Icelandic Sagas. The Nibelungen.
The Nibelungen becomes The Rhineland Tribal Mentality. The Rhineland Tribal Mentality is:
-physical prowess (Men and Gods), -the joy of
plunder, -the duty of revenge. The Rhineland
peoples conquer Rome. Rome becomes The First
Reich. Gotterdammerung/ Twilight of the Gods.
Followed by Parsifal. Conquers become the
Knights Templar and Hospitaliers. Creed of the Knights becomes one of Redemption which
is what Parsifal is all about ..and, this is
where Wagner and Nietzsche part ways. This is
real, reality, not just mythos. Wagner is telling History and gets it right and for that reason, Nietzsche loved him. Many did.

Wagner had to 'live what he created in order to create what he did.' Wagner, as the Man
that he was (and accused of) is the price
Western Civilization has had to endure for The Ring of the Nibelungen and his other art.

..so! One decides for himself if Wagner's art
is worthy of being understood as great art or
not.

I have never played in an opera orchestra, but I have several good orchestras playing
the Overtures and other insturmental pieces
from Die Mistersingers, The Ring, Lohengrin
(the prelude to the third act has some great
dbass writing) and Parsifal. Ones performance
depends on how you perceive what you are doing, what you are and what the whole thing
is. For me, it is not about Wagner the Man!
This is only how one man sees it and played
it.

I don't think you are ignorant Peter. I have read to many of these pages to believe that.

a hui ho
db

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dbass:

..so! One decides for himself if Wagner's art
is worthy of being understood as great art or
not.

I agree entirely! The merits of a work of art are not judged by the short-comings of its creator.


I don't think you are ignorant Peter. I have read to many of these pages to believe that.

a hui ho
db



Pleased to hear it!


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'Man know thyself'

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Peter:
to equate Wagner the man with Wagner the great artist and I'm not someone who condemns him or his music - I just think it is important to ackowledge these uncomfortable facts rather than excuse them. We like our great artists to be somehow beacons of wisdom and perfection and live up to the ideals we perceive in their works, in reality this is rarely the case.

I agree. Once again, I conceed that Wagner was anti-semetic, and I make no excuses for it ... it was vile. BUT, it is important to put it into context. The anti-semetism of Wagner, and the anti-semetism of the Nazis, can both be distinguished. Again, for a full explanation, I would direct anyone interested to the writings of Brian Magee, in particular the chapter on anti-semetism in his book, 'Wagner and Philosophy'.

Finally, just to counter-balance (though not to deny) the racist Wagner quotes as provided above, I add a few more quotes.

“If I wrote about the Jews again, I would say that there is nothing to be held against them, only that they came to us Germans too soon and we were not stable enough to absorb this element.” - Cosima Wagner, diary. November 21, 1888

The Nazi movement can be traced back to the late 19th century, when militarism, agressive nationalism, and violent anti-semetism emerged in German society. Here is what Wagner had to say about this, late in his life -

“I have no connection whatever with the present anti-Semitic movement. An article of mine about to appear in Bayreuther Blätter will state this in such a way that it should be impossible for intelligent people to identify me with this movement.” - In a letter to Angelo Neumann February 23, 1881

“German poetry, music and philosophy are nowadays esteemed and honored by every nation in the world; but in his yearning after “German Glory,” the German, as a rule, can dream of nothing but a sort of resurrection of the Roman Empire, and the thought inspires the most good-tempered German with an unmistakable lust for mastery, a longing for the upper-hand over the other nations. He forgets how detrimental to the welfare of the German peoples that notion of the Roman state has been already. Jesus teaches us to break through the barriers of patriotism and find our amplest satisfaction in the wealth of the human race.” (Do you think Hitler would have agreed with this??)

“Is the German already tottering to his fall? Woe to us and to the world if the nation itself were saved and the German folk remained, but the German spirit had taken flight for the sake of power.”

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
“If I wrote about the Jews again, I would say that there is nothing to be held against them, only that they came to us Germans too soon and we were not stable enough to absorb this element.” - Cosima Wagner, diary. November 21, 1888

I thought he died in 1883, along with Brahms... o.O

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"Aaaaagnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi... PAM, PAM PA RAM PAM PAM..." (Missa Solemnis)

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
I thought he died in 1883, along with Brahms... o.O

Yes, you are quite right, he did die in 1883. I got that quote second hand - must look it up. Possibly though Cosima was recalling what her husband had said, some years after his death.

[dnleeson0]

With respect to Chaszz request for more examples of Wagner's depiction of Jews as part of the 3 of the 4 Ring operas as well as Meistersinger, let me add the matter of smell to my previous comments about feet.

Wagner employs the allegory of smell to evoke images of character. The outsider is often accompanied by sulphurous fumes and the noxious stenches that emanate from them. The central theme of this coded idea is especially despicable because it is based on the belief of the "Jewish stench," or "foetor Judaicus."

The assertion that the Jew has a distinctive and unpleasant odor is a particularly grave accusation, first because of the origin alleged to be the stench's cause, and second because of the several ways Jews were said to act in order to eliminate it. Common belief during the middle ages associated good spirits with emitting a pleasant fragrance while evil spirits, particularly Satan and his minions, gave forth an obnoxious stench. For example, when the coffin of St. Stephen, the martyr, was opened, his body was said to have filled the air with a sweet fragrance that insinuated the odor of sanctity. In the case of the Jews, the stink was said to be a punishment for their crime against Jesus.

The Jews were said to have two ways to eliminate the smell, one of which involved murder and cannibalism; i.e., it was necessary to kill Christian children to obtain their blood for ritual purposes, one of which occurred during the Passover Seder. Jews were said to consume cups of this blood as an alleviate for the Jewish stench. The other choice was acceptance of baptism. A direct quote from the time states that "the water of baptism carried off the Jews' odor" and that this left them with a fragrance "sweeter than that of ambrosia floating upon the heads touched by the sanctified oil."

This disgusting accusation even went beyond those expressed in the extreme anti-Jewish rhetoric of Martin Luther, causing him to say, "So long as we use violence and slander, saying that [the Jews] use the blood of Christians to get rid of their stench ..., what can we expect of them?"

I have lots more if one can stomach this, but that these things are contained in 3 of the 4 operas of the Ring says that Wagner was not using his operas as political tracts, just as examples of his feelings about Jews.

Dan Leeson

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by dnleeson0:

Wagner employs the allegory of smell to evoke images of character. The outsider is often accompanied by sulphurous fumes and the noxious stenches that emanate from them. The central theme of this coded idea is especially despicable because it is based on the belief of the "Jewish stench," or "foetor Judaicus."

I'm sorry, but this is absolute piffle. Where exactly in Meistersinger does Wagner expressly describe Jews as smelly? I note you refer to "this coded idea". So evidently you have nothing which states this expressly. It is 'coded'. So how did you unlock the 'code'? Tell us what ingenious method you used to detect Wagner's 'real' and 'coded' meaning.

You see, as I have said before, if you really WANT to find anti-semitism in Wagner's works, then you WILL find it. It is like the methods employed by the heretic-hunters, and witch-finders, and the Spanish Inquisition in previous centuries to detect heresy. Armed with an active imagination, and a preconceived belief that the accused is guilty, if you combe through the text with meticulous patience no doubt you will come up with some sort of ambiguity that you can twist around to 'prove' your accusation.

But I ask you this. Would an average theater-goer, either in Wagner's day or in modern times, without any preconcieved ideas or knowledge of Wagner the man, go into an opera house and understand the villains in his operas to be obvious anti-semetic charicatures, or indeed percieve ANY reference to Jews at all? Of course not. Use your common sense.

[Steppenwolf]

Furthermore, if you really want to see an obvious example of OVERT (not 'coded') anti-semitism in classical music, forget Wagner ... look to JS BACH! (the devout Lutheran). You find it in St John Passion, the chorus when all the Jews (like in Mel Gibson's movie) are baying for Jesus' blood ('Kreuzige ihn!') Here is quite an overt example (which, in my opinion, does nothing to detract from the artistic greatness of Bach's work) of antisemitism, yet I don't hear people going on and on about it, Bach-bashing or suggesting that there is anything fascist about liking Bach's music.

[Gurn Blanston]

Likely because Bach's book about eliminating Jewish influences was suppressed by Lutheran apologists for him, you suppose?


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Furthermore, if you really want to see an obvious example of OVERT (not 'coded') anti-semitism in classical music, forget Wagner ... look to JS BACH! (the devout Lutheran). You find it in St John Passion, the chorus when all the Jews (like in Mel Gibson's movie) are baying for Jesus' blood ('Kreuzige ihn!') Here is quite an overt example (which, in my opinion, does nothing to detract from the artistic greatness of Bach's work) of antisemitism, yet I don't hear people going on and on about it, Bach-bashing or suggesting that there is anything fascist about liking Bach's music.

Then again on St.Mattew's the jews cry out "let his blood be on ourselves and on our children", and all this text came directly from the bible, the parts not from it are the chorales, all these are striking geniously written choruses. But then again, the bible is anti-semitic, it started all that, to say that someone is anti-semitic because he follows the bible blindly is an euphemism. That's what Bach and Mel Gibson did, but in these days of political correctness they can't anymore, thank god Bach was born 319 years ago, so they don't pick on him.

P.S.: Even though I believe in God, I don't have a religion.

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"Aaaaagnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi... PAM, PAM PA RAM PAM PAM..." (Missa Solemnis)

[dnleeson0]

Steppenwolf feels that the comments I made about Wagner's use of the allegory of smell are "piffle." There is nothing I can do about his view. He has every right to hold it. I was asked for another example of Wagners use of coded antisemitism and I gave one. Believe it. Don't believe it. It's your call.

Let's look at the character of Beckmesser who is certainly not represented as a Jew in the opera. In fact, he could not have been a member of the Guild if he had been a Jew. But Beckmesser represents a festival of Wagner's hateful ideas about Jews. The composer believed that Jews shuffle and stagger, their eyes squint, they are belligerent, designing, and unscrupulous, all characteristics that Beckmesser displays in the course of Meistersinger. Furthermore, and most important to the character of Beckmesser, is his absolute deficiency of musical talent, his inability to craft poetry, and his lack of metric or rhythmic sensitivity, any one of which should have made him unfit to be a member of the guild. Wagner's view on the Jew's ability to contribute to the world of culture is described in his essay Jewishness in Music: "In this language and this art the Jew can produce only imitative sounds and counterfeit goods - he cannot write truly eloquent poetry or create works of true art." Elsewhere in this same essay, Wagner writes, "If the Jew [is] incapable of articulating artistically his feelings and intuitions through speech, how much more incapable he must be of articulating them through song." Yet, like the Jew who, in Wagner's eyes, used devious and unscrupulous practices to gain entry into German society, Beckmesser has somehow become a member of the guild of singers, though how he passed the entrance examination at some previous time is incomprehensible.

Unlike every other guild member, Beckmesser has no craft but earns his living as the town notary. Despite his inadequacies, he has become a "marker," measuring the worth of potential members for the guild and judging the merit of aspiring candidates. He criticizes the slightest deviation from doctrine, and is the very thing that Wagner hates, a critic. On this matter, it is worth pointing out that an early name for the character of Sixtus Beckmesser was "Hans Lich," almost a duplicate of Wagner's nemesis, Eduard Hanslick, the so-called "Bismark of critics." The name change to Sixtus Beckmesser occurred very early in the creative cycle, but the fact that Wagner even considered this humiliation for a man who he regarded as an archenemy (and of Jewish ancestry) is notable.

But it is in Beckmesser's singing style that the most revealing picture makes itself known, for what he sings and how he sings it is a parody of the rhythms and vocal inflections of synagogue chant. Further, it is music that is very high, in fact, far too high for the bass voice specified by Wagner. It is another example of the effeminate high voice that parodied the result of castration, which was confused with circumcision.

Beckmesser's performance as a poet/singer is so incompetent that the reactions to him from the citizens of the town range from cynical disrespect to outright ridicule. His ardent and pathetic serenading of the wrong woman leads to a riot. And he is a thief, too, stealing another's poem for use as the text for his own song. But even in this he fails because, in Wagner's eyes, Beckmesser cannot be a musical person even when given satisfactory raw material and coached in its proper use by a master. Here the parallel to the unpoetic, inarticulate, and unmusical Jew is unambiguous.

Finally, there is the matter of Beckmesser's participation in a song contest that directly challenges Walther, the opera's hero. Beckmesser's purpose in this foolish act, which results in further humiliation for him, has to do with the contest's prize being the beautiful daughter of a wealthy fellow guild member; i.e., the image of Beckmesser is that of a talentless and incompetent older man having sexual pretensions for a young, pure German maiden as well as lust for wealth, this description summarizing Wagner's opinion of Jews.

The characteristics exhibited in Beckmesser generally pass unnoticed by contemporary audiences, mostly because our generation has little experience with coded nineteenth-century antisemitism. The heritage of the Holocaust has gone far to desensitize us to all but the naked, uncamouflaged, and flagrant use of antisemitic acts. Our sensitivity to how the German world saw Jews at the time of the premiere of Master Singers has been changed, and it is not so easy for the contemporary world to recognize the characteristics of coded nineteenth-century antisemitism. For example, we no longer remember the antisemitic Grimm fairy tale, "The Jew in the Thornbush", that contains plot parallels to this opera.

The same characteristic of vocal production is also found in the Ring. Again Wagner uses a characteristic with hidden antisemitic meaning, in this case vocal patterns. Wagner's formulation of a large-scale male and female voice, for example, the "heroic tenor", is used for the Volk whereas the outsiders sing in distinguishing non-Volkish ways. The gnomes in The Ring have high and piercing voices, the same coded message for the confusion between castration and circumcision as found in Master Singers, as well as a related claim connecting circumcision with effeminacy in the Jewish male. Thus the Volk sing with heroic qualities while the outsider screams in a high-pitched voice.

I recognize that the 21st century world looks at Jew hatred differently than that of the 19th century where coded elements that Wagner uses were not as hidden or incomprehensible as they are today.

And there are so many of these things present in the Wagner dramas. I've only discussed three: feet, smell, and now vocal inflection. I'm not surprised the Steppenwolf is not familiar with this kind of presentation and finds it bizarre as a result of his lack of familiarity. But those things are there and suggesting that if you look hard enough you will find hatred in almost anything, is not a penetrating or useful comment. I have yet to discuss vision or the coded element of Wagner's fears about race mixing.

One such item in his operas could be an accident. But not six.

As I said, believe it, don't believe it.

Dan Leeson

[Steppenwolf]

The argument for 'coded' references to anti-semitism in Wagner's music-dramas seems essentially to rest on the premise that since Wagner held anti-semetic views, then any villian portrayed in is works must of necessity be Jewish. The deductioin proceeds thus -

Wagner was anti-semetic.
There are villians in some of his operas.
Therefore, the villians must be Jewish.

One very inexplicable part of this argument, however, is why Wagner would have gone to the effort of 'coding' his anti-semitism in a torturously obscure and cryptic manner. Why not just express the anti-semitism overtly? Wagner as a man was notoriously tactless and would always speak his mind openly and bluntly. He was not given to obscurity, ambiguity or understatement. I am sure if had wanted to use his music dramas to bash Jews then he would have done so openly. He was very open and explicit in the anti-semetic articles he wrote ... so why not the same directness in his operas?

As I said in my previous post, you can prove almost ANYTHING if you interpret ambiguity in a manner consistent with a pre-concieved conclusion. It is like all those crack-pot conspiracy theorists, or the nutters who think that the Bible contains 'coded' references and prophesies about Princess Diana or September 11.

Originally posted by dnleeson0:

I have yet to discuss vision or the coded element of Wagner's fears about race mixing.

I assume you refer to Parsifal, and believe, like that deluded propagandist Robert Gutman, that it is all about the evils of race mixing, an exposition of racialist philosophy of Count Gobinau. Trouble is, the libretto to Parsifal was completed in 1868, and Wagner only encountered Gobinau and his book, 'The Inequality of the Races', in 1880. So that theory is completely disproven. I wonder how familar you are with the philosophy of Arthur Schopenhauer? Not very much, I guess. If you were, you would realise that Parsifal has nothing to do with racialist theories, and everything to do with the philosophy of Schopenhauer.