Missa Solemnis

[Phil Leeds]

Re the Klemperer recording, having searched online, is it the 1965 EMI recording, New Philharmonia Chorus and Orchestra that is being recommended?

[Michael]

Re the Klemperer recording, having searched online, is it the 1965 EMI recording, New Philharmonia Chorus and Orchestra that is being recommended?

Yes, that's the one - a fine recording and not noticeably slower than many other versions except, as I mentioned above, in the "in gloria Dei Patris" section of the "Gloria".

[Fidelio]

Seeing the posts about the definitive 32 piano sonatas, I was wondering what is recommended for the Missa?
I have a Tonhalle Orchestra, conducted by David Zinman recording of 2002

John Eliot Gardiner, Monteverdi Choir & English Baroque Soloists.
Huge clarity & incredibly dramatic

[Phil Leeds]

Yes, that's the one - a fine recording and not noticeably slower than many other versions except, as I mentioned above, in the "in gloria Dei Patris" section of the "Gloria".

Thanks Michael - ordered a copy from Amazon, hope it gets through the postal strike in time for the weekend

[Michael]

Thanks Michael - ordered a copy from Amazon, hope it gets through the postal strike in time for the weekend

Unless they have changed the CD setup, it should also include, as filler, an excellent version of the Choral Fantasia with Klemperer and Barenboim, but it's been a good few years since I bought my copy.

[Chris]

Unless they have changed the CD setup, it should also include, as filler, an excellent version of the Choral Fantasia with Klemperer and Barenboim, but it's been a good few years since I bought my copy.

I don't think my version has that. And the Choral Fantasia would be a heck of a "filler!"

[Michael]

I don't think my version has that. And the Choral Fantasia would be a heck of a "filler!"

They had to put something substantial because the Klemperer's Missa woudn't fit on one CD and the second disc contained the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei.
Gardiner managed to get the work on one CD and yet his version doesn't seem rushed in any way.

[Chris]

They had to put something substantial because the Klemperer's Missa woudn't fit on one CD and the second disc contained the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei.
Gardiner managed to get the work on one CD and yet his version doesn't seem rushed in any way.

Hm, my recording of the Klemperer Missa is only on one CD. It is the EMI Classics version.

[Michael]

Hm, my recording of the Klemperer Missa is only on one CD. It is the EMI Classics version.

Strange. I always thought no commercial CD could exceed 80 minutes (or 79 and something) but I could well be out of date. The running time for my version of the Klemperer Missa (which has to be the same recording) is over 81 minutes (just beating the barrier) and so two CDs had to be used, hence the large filler.
Just for curiousity, Chris, what's the running-time of your CD? Have they squeezed the extra time in?
Just noticed that my two-disc set was published in 1988 - quite early days for CD - and it still sounds great except for some bad edits which are noticeable only through headphones.

[Phil Leeds]

I have ordered the EMI Classics copy, with a 2nd copyright date of 2001. It is on 1 CD (no fillers) and gives a play time of 79:31. I wonder if they have speeded something up.

[Chris]

I have ordered the EMI Classics copy, with a 2nd copyright date of 2001. It is on 1 CD (no fillers) and gives a play time of 79:31. I wonder if they have speeded something up.

Perhaps just deleted some silence between tracks or something?

[Michael]

Am I wrong, or is there a method of very subtly speeding up tracks without an increase in pitch or the "chipmonk" effect? I can do it with DVDs so I am wondering if it is quietly applied to music CDs. In the case of the Missa recording, all that was needed was an extra two minutes of time in order to avoid a second CD.
It's a nice condundrum for all you fellows with digital measuring equipment or whatever, but in practice I'm sure the effect is not at all audible (if the effect exists and I'm not imagining all this). (Maybe they sped up the ending of the "Gloria"? )

[Chris]

Yes, you can do that, but when you go to all the trouble to record or master digitally in certain bit-depth at certain sample rate in order to get the best possible reproduction, why would you want to spoil it by applying such a technique?

Let's compare individual track lengths. If this was done across the entire recording, the ratio should be equal across all track lengths. If it was applied to only one or two parts, those tracks alone will be different.

EMI Classics version:
Kyrie - 9:26 (566 s)
Gloria
Gloria in excelsis Deo - 5:21 (321 s)
Qui tollis - 5:41 (341 s)
Quoniam tu solos sanctus - 7:16 (436 s)
Credo
Credo in unum Deum - 4:17 (257 s)
Et incarnatus est - 5:17 (317 s)
Et resurrexit - 11:06 (666 s)
Sanctus
Sanctus - 5:29 (329)
Benedictus - 10:19 (619 s)
Angus Dei
Angus Dei - 6:04 (364 s)
Dona nobis pacem - 9:10 (550 s)

Total - 79:31 (4771 s)

Though if you add up all the track lengths, you actually get 79:26 (4766 s), so I'm not sure where they got the extra 5 seconds. Perhaps track breaks.

[Michael]

I get much the same total as you, Chris, when I added up the track lengths as read by my CD player (which can differ by a couple of seconds from the track listing on the box). The whole thing comes to 79m 28s so we can safely rule out any digital tampering on the new edition.
My copy was published in 1988 and I think it was a bit of a squeeze back then to get anything over 78 minutes on a single CD; some of the older players couldn't deal with it and even the Philips Red Book specifications didn't support it. Or maybe they wanted to make extra money from two CDs. Either way, I'm not complaining as the Choral Fantasia is a great recording.
The new pressing of the Missa should be an improvement on my version because of the superior remastering that can be employed nowadays.
Chris or Phil, just out of curiosity, would you give a listen to the Kyrie on headphones (if you can) and see if they have smoothed over a terrible edit just where the "Christe Eleison" comes in. I never notice it through speakers but it is annoying on headphones and should be eliminated by now. If they can do it for the Beatles' "She Loves You" they can surely do it for the Missa Solemnis.

[Phil Leeds]

Got my copy on Saturday
Only had time for one playing so far and particularly enjoyed the last "bit" of the Gloria. I love the way Klemperer gives emphasis to the wind section [wonderful half way through the Funeral March of Eroica and always sends a shiver down my spine]. I wasn't sure if the Dona nobis pacem right at the end sounded right to my untutored ear, I suppose it's a case that after listening to one other version countless times, that version becomes "right".
Later in the week, I'll listen out for the bad edit you mention Michael - now where did I put those headphones ...