Who is the greater Piano Composer: Chopin or Beethoven

[ILoveLudwig]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
We could go on with this until the sun burns out and not have a conclusive agreement on greatness. We all have our favorites and I am sure we consider a good portion of them great. Can we say "Greatness" is in the ears of the beholder?[/B]

Well said. And what a question to ask (comparing Beethoven and Chopin in the first place), but it leads to interesting discussion!

[iansdigby]

Horowitz

Horowitz considered that Beethoven did not understand the piano as well as Chopin.

[Peter]

Horowitz considered that Beethoven did not understand the piano as well as Chopin.

Welcome iansdigby. Chopin was probably the most natural pianist ever and his music was almost totally conceived for the piano. Beethoven thought orchestrally, but I think we also have to take into consideration Beethoven's deafness with the consequent withdrawal from performing his own works along with the rise of the public recital and further developments of the instrument that took place in Chopin's lifetime.

[AeolianHarp]

Welcome iansdigby. Chopin was probably the most natural pianist ever and his music was almost totally conceived for the piano. Beethoven thought orchestrally, but I think we also have to take into consideration Beethoven's deafness with the consequent withdrawal from performing his own works along with the rise of the public recital and further developments of the instrument that took place in Chopin's lifetime.

This a very old thread iansdigy- long before I was here! I have to disagree with Horowitz- much as I like Chopin, I find Beethoven's piano works to be deeper and in his late sonatas, more spiritual. In my opinion, nobody understood the piano more than Beethoven did.
Agreed with Peter above, that his deafness has to be considered in cutting short his pianistic performances/career.

Not so sure that piano "development" matters as the fortepianos of Beethoven's time were more than up to the job of co- creating astounding works like Hammerklavier Sonata.

Having access to an 1840s/post 1840s piano would not have resulted in a better composition.

But..the relationship between the Pleyel Piano and Chopin was indeed a close one- when you hear Chopin played on this 1840s instrument then you experience closer to what Chopin intended.

[Michael]

Maybe it can be said (to paraphrase William McNaught on the string quartets) that Beethoven wrote the best music for piano and that Chopin's was the best writing for piano.
The pianists on this forum would be a better judge of that.

[AeolianHarp]

Maybe it can be said (to paraphrase William McNaught on the string quartets) that Beethoven wrote the best music for piano and that Chopin's was the best writing for piano.
The pianists on this forum would be a better judge of that.

Well..it is hard to put into words (for me at least) but Beethoven's late piano sonatas, they go beyond piano, true it is a piano playing the music..but..it is something else..something other..

(Mozart's Fantasia is spooky at times and eerie, but creating an atmosphere that is more readily understood..the late Beethoven piano sonatas are still elusive)

I can't think of any other composer who achieved that, except Debussy to a lesser degree.

[Peter]

This a very old thread iansdigy- long before I was here! I have to disagree with Horowitz- much as I like Chopin, I find Beethoven's piano works to be deeper and in his late sonatas, more spiritual. In my opinion, nobody understood the piano more than Beethoven did.
Agreed with Peter above, that his deafness has to be considered in cutting short his pianistic performances/career.

Not so sure that piano "development" matters as the fortepianos of Beethoven's time were more than up to the job of co- creating astounding works like Hammerklavier Sonata.

Having access to an 1840s/post 1840s piano would not have resulted in a better composition.

But..the relationship between the Pleyel Piano and Chopin was indeed a close one- when you hear Chopin played on this 1840s instrument then you experience closer to what Chopin intended.

Horowitz was not saying that Beethoven's piano music was not as great as Chopin's, but that it was not as naturally pianistic in concept. Few would argue that the greatest of Chopin's works could match the Hammerklavier, but few pianists would argue that that work was as naturally pianistic as a Chopin etude which truly demonstrates Chopin's grasp of the piano and technique.

[AeolianHarp]

Horowitz was not saying that Beethoven's piano music was not as great as Chopin's, but that it was not as naturally pianistic in concept. Few would argue that the greatest of Chopin's works could match the Hammerklavier, but few pianists would argue that that work was as naturally pianistic as a Chopin etude which truly demonstrates Chopin's grasp of the piano and technique.

In effect saying that Beethoven's piano music went beyond the piano?
One of his late sonatas has a deep mournful bell tolling in it, like a requiem, how he manages that is well... ( but you gotta hear it on fortepiano for the full effect)...

[Peter]

In effect saying that Beethoven's piano music went beyond the piano?
One of his late sonatas has a deep mournful bell tolling in it, like a requiem, how he manages that is well... ( but you gotta hear it on fortepiano for the full effect)...

Well yes I'd say Beethoven did go beyond the medium he wrote for and not only with the piano. I think you are referring to the repeated note in the Arioso dolente of Op.110?

Chopin was remarkable with his understanding of the piano and extremely forward thinking as a teacher - his idea of teaching beginners for example the scale of B major rather than C was inspirational in that he recognised the natural shape of the piano hand this induced.

[AeolianHarp]

Well yes I'd say Beethoven did go beyond the medium he wrote for and not only with the piano. I think you are referring to the repeated note in the Arioso dolente of Op.110?

It occurs at 50:53-51:11 in opus 110, sonata no 31.
As you will hear the effect is tremendous on the fortepiano. I believe that this was intentional by Beethoven.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70L4xQ3RR6s[/YOUTUBE]

Chopin was remarkable with his understanding of the piano and extremely forward thinking as a teacher - his idea of teaching beginners for example the scale of B major rather than C was inspirational in that he recognised the natural shape of the piano hand this induced.

Yes, he taught a lot of people.

[Sorrano]

Trying to make one genre and time period for piano greater than another does not work for me. The music I've played of Beethoven for piano has great depth and construction. The music I've played of Chopin for piano also has great depth and construction. The styles are significantly different as to render the question irrelevant. Maybe the better question is which do you like better? As for me, it depends on which one I am listening to or playing at the moment. :-)

[Peter]

Trying to make one genre and time period for piano greater than another does not work for me. The music I've played of Beethoven for piano has great depth and construction. The music I've played of Chopin for piano also has great depth and construction. The styles are significantly different as to render the question irrelevant. Maybe the better question is which do you like better? As for me, it depends on which one I am listening to or playing at the moment. :-)

Yes a fair point Sorrano, but as I mentioned Horowitz wasn't talking about who was the greater composer, he made an observation from a pianist's viewpoint that Chopin wrote more naturally for the piano than Beethoven.

[hal9000]

It's a similar argument about Beethoven's voice writing compared to Mozart's. Verdi thought the vocal writing in the 9th poor. Beethoven may not have been as idiomatic as Chopin or Mozart, but in the words of Beethoven after one violinist suggested that one of his quartets was too hard to play: "Do you think I give a damn about your miserable little violin when the muse visits me?"

[hal9000]

Having access to an 1840s/post 1840s piano would not have resulted in a better composition.

I could be wrong (I often am) but would the fortepiano be able to play this? The improved escapement action would be one aspect Beethoven couldn't apply to his piano music.

[AeolianHarp]

I could be wrong (I often am) but would the fortepiano be able to play this? The improved escapement action would be one aspect Beethoven couldn't apply to his piano music.

Fortepianos don't need to play Liszt, and the pianos of Liszt's day (1840s-1880s) were again different to modern pianos. Fortepianos are for the music of Mozart's and Beethoven's day. It matters not about "improved escapement action"- Beethoven's piano music ( and all of his genres too) was/is perfect as it is. It cannot be "improved" upon by playing it on a modern piano.

No composer has come even close to composing works like piano sonatas nos 28, 29, 30, 31 and 32. And let's not forget the Diabelli Variations either. No Steinways required.