Wagner , Love and Civilization.

[Quijote]

A short article here to help nudge along your Wagner debate :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...estra-bayreuth

[RobertH]

A short article here to help nudge along your Wagner debate :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...estra-bayreuth

Nice article from the Guardian Philip, thanks for that ( thank you also Preston for your comments in PM).

Barenboim has done some marvellous work here, he illustrates the impt adage in life abt rising above things and not descending to the gutter where sometimes even great spirits like RW have descended. I particularly like B's work in Israel where he has been trying to bring together Arab and Israeli youngsters and build bridges in a badly damged society.
Wagners real; problem i think is that like many educated philosphically minded Germans of the time he was simply unable to reconcile his politics with his philosophy. His politics became more virulent as he got older really the result of a lot of resentment Germans had about the decaying imperial structures they lived under. The fact was that the place was made up of a myriad of tiny principalities which failed to reflect the aspirations of a people who felt themselves to be a united Volk German people decades before Bismark. Against that you have the philosophy of sympathy, concern for the suffering of others and a feeling that the world was a veil of tears. I think this made Germany a very dysfunctional place and trouble was clearly brewing even in Wagners time.Prussian militiarism pandered to everything that was wrong here - a strand of german philosphy had always worshipped the hero in action and as the embodiment of the spiritual progress of man, Hegel's work comes to mind.
Was there even a kind of death wish operating here - the political situation is so dire that perhaps there was a feeling that any sacrifice of humanity or fellow feeling was necessary to break out of the strait jacket. Germany came late to the race for colonies and was largely kept out by Anglo France alliance. There was a feeling in both world wars that it was now or never. But its real problem has always been that a united Germany is just too big for the continent of Europe. It can indeed only be tolerated as now when it is in effect politically emasculated - a political neuter that is simply there to carry the economic burdens of the Euro - a strange fate indeed that RW among others would surely never have predicted!

[Peter]

Nice article from the Guardian Philip, thanks for that ( thank you also Preston for your comments in PM).

Barenboim has done some marvellous work here, he illustrates the impt adage in life abt rising above things and not descending to the gutter where sometimes even great spirits like RW have descended. I particularly like B's work in Israel where he has been trying to bring together Arab and Israeli youngsters and build bridges in a badly damged society.
Wagners real; problem i think is that like many educated philosphically minded Germans of the time he was simply unable to reconcile his politics with his philosophy. His politics became more virulent as he got older really the result of a lot of resentment Germans had about the decaying imperial structures they lived under. The fact was that the place was made up of a myriad of tiny principalities which failed to reflect the aspirations of a people who felt themselves to be a united Volk German people decades before Bismark. Against that you have the philosophy of sympathy, concern for the suffering of others and a feeling that the world was a veil of tears. I think this made Germany a very dysfunctional place and trouble was clearly brewing even in Wagners time.Prussian militiarism pandered to everything that was wrong here - a strand of german philosphy had always worshipped the hero in action and as the embodiment of the spiritual progress of man, Hegel's work comes to mind.
Was there even a kind of death wish operating here - the political situation is so dire that perhaps there was a feeling that any sacrifice of humanity or fellow feeling was necessary to break out of the strait jacket. Germany came late to the race for colonies and was largely kept out by Anglo France alliance. There was a feeling in both world wars that it was now or never. But its real problem has always been that a united Germany is just too big for the continent of Europe. It can indeed only be tolerated as now when it is in effect politically emasculated - a political neuter that is simply there to carry the economic burdens of the Euro - a strange fate indeed that RW among others would surely never have predicted!

I'm not sure that the unification of Germany is the issue per se, the real problem was the clash of empires and egos!

[Preston]

Robert, I have been thinking about the things you wrote. They are deeply true. And a lot of them deeply sad. What you written is very moving to me, because of your understanding on these issues.

Preston.
We are surely not going to make a happier world around us unless and until we have put ourselves right in some mysterious way, with all the things very evidently that are going wrong with us.

You are exactly right. In other words achieve some glorious state of being. A state of almost purity where fairness and equality can reign. Buddha spoke so much of this. A major purpose of Buddha's was to spread the word to the enlightenment - the very state of being that this world needs - a state of "purity". I quote purity because purity is anything but what the common tongue thinks it is.

The problems with the world are extreme Robert. You know this. Everyone knows this but the problem is they are not right in the head - so, therefore, 'they' do not know and nothing can be done about the problems. There is knowing and there is deeply knowing - seeing - believing - understanding, etc. - on such a level of depth, such a level.

Robert based on what you have written, I am deeply moved by your words. I would be happy to read anymore of your thoughts - please, send me a pm. I feel like the understanding you have of these issues (if I understand your understanding to the degree I think) is brilliant - so brilliant. So moving Robert. SO.

All the best.

[Chaszz]

I'm not sure that the unification of Germany is the issue per se, the real problem was the clash of empires and egos!

This is true. The non-unification of Germany, which was furthered by the other powers, made her late in the rush to colonize the rest of the world. Once she unified, her resentment at being late to the colonial dinner table and having to make do with leftovers, and then the ensuing competition with England and the other powers, led to WWI. WWII was largely a continuation of WWI as Hitler tried to exact revenge for Germany's defeat in the earlier conflict.

[Peter]

This is true. The non-unification of Germany, which was furthered by the other powers, made her late in the rush to colonize the rest of the world. Once she unified, her resentment at being late to the colonial dinner table and having to make do with leftovers, and then the ensuing competition with England and the other powers, led to WWI. WWII was largely a continuation of WWI as Hitler tried to exact revenge for Germany's defeat in the earlier conflict.

Yes I think that's true - rather typical of our British hypocrisy, it's ok for us to have the union of Great Britain (England, Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland) but we are critical of German unification. Neither WWI and therefore WWII would have happened had Queen Victoria still been alive - all she'd have to do is get her family together and tell them to grow up!!

[Preston]

I have been looking little, just a little, into Wagner's Ring and all I can say is Wagner was really taken by Christianity... I mean unbelievably. I can see why the Nazi's liked him so. I mean he pretty much damns, what I feel are very beautiful things - mystics, "heathens", "pagans", eastern religions, etc. - really all religions except Christianity. To my mind, that is ridiculous, ludicrous, insane, etc.

If Hitler was familiar with the works of Wagner then Hitler was probably very moved by Wagner.

I recently found out about the meaning behind the Nazi swastika - it is a twisted form of the swastika of Buddhism.

Anyone think people take religion too seriously? And, in some sense, in doing so, start damning everything that is not to their liking or their false greatness?

[Peter]

I have been looking little, just a little, into Wagner's Ring and all I can say is Wagner was really taken by Christianity... I mean unbelievably. I can see why the Nazi's liked him so. I mean he pretty much damns, what I feel are very beautiful things - mystics, "heathens", "pagans", eastern religions, etc. - really all religions except Christianity. To my mind, that is ridiculous, ludicrous, insane, etc.

If Hitler was familiar with the works of Wagner then Hitler was probably very moved by Wagner.

I recently found out about the meaning behind the Nazi swastika - it is a twisted form of the swastika of Buddhism.

Anyone think people take religion too seriously? And, in some sense, in doing so, start damning everything that is not to their liking or their false greatness?

Religion like any other field of human activity is open to abuse, extremes and wilful misinterpretation - there is good and bad in all faiths.

[Quijote]

I recently found out about the meaning behind the Nazi swastika - it is a twisted form of the swastika of Buddhism.

I may be wrong, but I always thought the swastika was originally a Hindu symbol?

[Preston]

I may be wrong, but I always thought the swastika was originally a Hindu symbol?

From what I understand it was. Though, there is also a Buddhist swastika. What I read was that the Nazi swastika was perhaps a twisted form of the Buddhist swastika. Though that may be wrong?

[Preston]

There is really a lot of information regarding the origins of the swastika. I have been reading more on it in the past 30 min.


More information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

So the Nazi swastika is turned sideways, and while the same direction as the Hindu swastika, backwards from the Buddhist Swastika.

[Megan]

Ok I've lost the plot , right?