Beethoven's effect on gender

[heidi]

I have offened wondered and thought about the way Beethoven's music is different between men and women. I think more women 'fall in love' with Beethoven and his music and men admire his work. I very much admire Beethoven for everything he did and endured to give us his gift, but I can say if he were alive today, I definitly would be what you'd call a 'groupie'(Maybe not quite the right term but a huge fan). Since there are male and females that write in to this forum, I'd like to know any other opinions. This was a big topic the other day with my friends so I thought I would try it out here.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by heidi:
I have offened wondered and thought about the way Beethoven's music is different between men and women. I think more women 'fall in love' with Beethoven and his music and men admire his work. I very much admire Beethoven for everything he did and endured to give us his gift, but I can say if he were alive today, I definitly would be what you'd call a 'groupie'(Maybe not quite the right term but a huge fan). Since there are male and females that write in to this forum, I'd like to know any other opinions. This was a big topic the other day with my friends so I thought I would try it out here.

I think admire is too weak a word for the love that a composer like Beethoven inspires. Although I would not want to go out with him.

[mspaceray]

Very funny Chaszz,I'm not convinced that LVB is enjoyed differently by males and females but I do think that from my expierence here that there are those who are interested more in LvB from a technical viewpoint and those that are more interested in the great man himself.I began as the later but after a short education in basic theory I have now become quite intrested in the former,Beethoven changed the way music worked and moved it so much forward every composer that followed had to take this into account.

[lysander]

I have to say that I think the distinction between how a man and a woman does react to Beethoven's music is a false distinction.

There is no evidence that how human beings process sounds or how the emotions are stirred in music is any different between a man and a woman. A man is just as likely to 'Love' Beethoven as a woman in terms of empathy, admiration and strong affection.

Beethoven's music is loved by millions of people because there is a correspondence between it and the deepest aspects of our being. T.S. Elliot called it, the objective co-relative in art.
The outer world reflects an inner truth and vice versa. The Germans called it in philisophical terms - einfuhlung, meaning in Beethoven's case, we are part of his music and his music is part of us. No one is really going to attain to a fuller appreciation of his music or indeed any great art without recognizing this, and it is ofcourse probably true to say that it goes on for most of us pretty unconsciously anyway.
The whole of romantic music, art and poetry is infused with a sense of einfuhlung, and in Beethoven's case it really means that he was a medium for the music and reached deeper parts of the musical universe than any other composer before or since.
Ofcourse, one of the incredible things that even as Beethoven is subsumed into his music, his gigantic personality blazes forth in even greater glory! So it is as though the self is unquenchable, or inextinguishable as Nielson's later symphony calls it, but on the whole, I still do not think that undermines the point I am trying to make about the importance of our sense of 'oneness' in the music.

Lysander.




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited April 24, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

My, what a variety of response so far!! It is hard to disagree with any of you, since it is metaphysically absurb to assume that I can know how YOU feel, but the original premise in Heidi's letter, that the physiological and culturally induced differences between the genders makes for the possibility of generalizing the feelings of a subset of the group; I think this has some validity. More of the men that I "speak" with are interested in the technical aspects of the music itself, and more of the women are interested in the amount of personal "self" that the composer injected into the work, but even these generalizations fall down because of the blending of interests along lines that don't strike me as gender-induced. It is typical, to use a metaphor, that men tend to be interested in the physics of ballistics, while women tend to be interested in the killing that results from the indiscriminate use of guns. This doesn't mean that either group focuses solely on the one aspect, it is just a tendency. As it happens, I am not a musician, nor do I have a deep knowledge of theory although I would like to have, and my personal reaction is to the gut-wrenching emotion that I feel in this music. So I suspect that I don't fall in either "camp", or perhaps, I am simply more in touch with my feminine side. ;-)))
Regards, Gurn

[lysander]

This discussion we are having about the so called gender reactions to Beethoven brings to my mind for some strange reason that wonderful painting of Beethoven playing to the blind girl. There she is, body forward, attentiive,
head inclined slightly away from the Maestro, almost bowed in a reverential pose, devouring every note that falls from the keys. The thing that strikes me is that she is very much a symbol for Everyman, the whole of mankind and the painter conveys very powerfully that this young girl in her blindness is much like all of us who are blind in some moral sense or other until Beethoven enlightens us.
We are also like her in our youth and innocency guided by his experience and 'superior' inner knowledge of the secrets of the harmony of the universe.

She is rapt and held spellbound by the cascading magic that pours from Beethoven, and she also knows with the innocency and trust of a child that she is in safe hands.
Beethoven also looks at her as he looks at us, with great and benign charity and sympathy.
So really this wonderful girl is a symbol for all of us, old and young, man and woman, rich and poor, slave or King.



[This message has been edited by lysander (edited April 24, 2003).]

[John Rasmussen]

My gut feeling is that individual differences are greater than general differences between the genders. As for me, I both love and admire Beethoven's music, and I agree with whoever wrote that "admire" is much too weak a word for the reaction his music evokes.

It may be that men in general are more analytic and respond to details more. But anyone, male or female, who knows and loves music is by that love opened to a more wholistic, instinctive approach to life. In performance, especially, one has to integrate details into a convincing whole--or the music fails to reach the spirit or move the heart.

[mspaceray]

Have you ever heard the term"amusa"it's someone who does not like music period(male or female)
Hadyn's wife was such a person,had no interest in
or feeling for music at all,they had a terrible marriage.I lost my heart to a piano player once,the whole affair was about how gorgeously he played an emotional response entirely,took me a while to discover he wasn't a very pleasant human.I think we can be easily blinded by emotional response to music.

[heidi]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
My, what a variety of response so far!! It is hard to disagree with any of you, since it is metaphysically absurb to assume that I can know how YOU feel, but the original premise in Heidi's letter, that the physiological and culturally induced differences between the genders makes for the possibility of generalizing the feelings of a subset of the group; I think this has some validity. More of the men that I "speak" with are interested in the technical aspects of the music itself, and more of the women are interested in the amount of personal "self" that the composer injected into the work, but even these generalizations fall down because of the blending of interests along lines that don't strike me as gender-induced. It is typical, to use a metaphor, that men tend to be interested in the physics of ballistics, while women tend to be interested in the killing that results from the indiscriminate use of guns. This doesn't mean that either group focuses solely on the one aspect, it is just a tendency. As it happens, I am not a musician, nor do I have a deep knowledge of theory although I would like to have, and my personal reaction is to the gut-wrenching emotion that I feel in this music. So I suspect that I don't fall in either "camp", or perhaps, I am simply more in touch with my feminine side. ;-)))
Regards, Gurn

Thanks 'Gurn' for backing me up and saying it better than I did. I don't love Beethoven personally (I think he would have been very difficult) but sincerly love his music. Since I am not a musician or hold no degree in music I feel I can never contribute to the topics posted on theory or constuction of music, only on how I benifit from the beauty of Beethoven's music.But I do love to read about him and how his pieces came to be. It makes hearing them much more intersting too.

[Joy]

Originally posted by heidi:
Since I am not a musician or hold no degree in music I feel I can never contribute to the topics posted on theory or constuction of music, only on how I benifit from the beauty of Beethoven's music.But I do love to read about him and how his pieces came to be. It makes hearing them much more intersting too.

It seems I am in the same predicament, but my love for his music is genuine and I benefit from it also. I find myself wnting to learn more about Beethoven as well so thanks to books, and this forum, I have certainly learned a lot in the last few years.

[mspaceray]

I have to agree that this forum has led my on a merry dance of music analysis reading,that is to say I'm reading the music scholars opinions regarding the work of Beethoven and all the Master Composers and listening to the music helps a great deal but I don't think my life will be long enough to really grasp what is said of music.I did read a very approachable book last week by Aaron Coupland titled what to listen for in music.This was very good.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by heidi:
Thanks 'Gurn' for backing me up and saying it better than I did. I don't love Beethoven personally (I think he would have been very difficult) but sincerly love his music. Since I am not a musician or hold no degree in music I feel I can never contribute to the topics posted on theory or constuction of music, only on how I benifit from the beauty of Beethoven's music.But I do love to read about him and how his pieces came to be. It makes hearing them much more intersting too.

Heidi,
Truly my pleasure. I would be failing to hold up my end as a male if I did not only recognize but also appreciate the fine differences between the genders ;-))
Of course, the true answer to this, as so many observations of its kind, is that the reality lies in the middle ground. Those who look not to the differences but to the commonalities are the ones who get "the meaning of life", which is certainly to enjoy it while it is avaialble for that purpose.
Regards, Mike

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by mspaceray:
I have to agree that this forum has led my on a merry dance of music analysis reading,that is to say I'm reading the music scholars opinions regarding the work of Beethoven and all the Master Composers and listening to the music helps a great deal but I don't think my life will be long enough to really grasp what is said of music.I did read a very approachable book last week by Aaron Coupland titled what to listen for in music.This was very good.

Space,
I always worry that we tend to intellectualize too much about that which we love most, so even though I would not consider myself anti-intellectual, I do my best to never lose sight of the fact that the end result of any piece of music must be that it has entertained and moved me emotionally. The most perfectly crafted sonata may inspire by its workmanship, but if it does not grip my emotions, the composer has failed. Beethoven never fails, nor does Mozart or a few others I can name. This is, I think, the reason why their music has lived on long after they have passed; not because of the perfection of form that we find by reverse engineering, but by the power they have to touch our emotions. Oh damn, there's my feminine side creeping out again ;-)))
Regards, Gurn

[Beethoven1]

Thought the following quote by Beethoven is appropriate for this topic:

"Music should bring tears to the eyes of Woman and strike fire in the heart of Man."