Handel vs Bach cont.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I shall refrain from listening to any more Handel until some Bach gets listened to.

Ok I'll give you my first impression of the intro. Compared to Handels big choruses I was surprised at the lack of any real melody, or 'anthem', for this section at least. As is typical with Bach we are presented with an exercise in polyphony that has little melodic strength. But I'll have a better idea when I've heard the whole piece. People will be crazy not to listen to the latest pieces I have presented.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I shall refrain from listening to any more Handel until some Bach gets listened to.

Ok I've given it a good listening to. Listening all the way through at a reasonable volume it's got more of a swing to it than I first thought, but it ultimately lacks the personal touch one experiences with Handel, that is, for however well written it is, it lacks character and real musical invention. That is typical Bach to my ears. Your mp3 sounds is a little jumpy though, but I have allowed for that. It's not a bad piece, but I feel little motivation to listen to it again.

I'll give you two real earth shakers from 'Solomon' and something triumphant from 'Israel and Egypt' that you will want to keep! Have you got any solemn choruses for us Chaszz?

Ok then, now I expect nothing but a glowing report about my German Arias, knowing you are a man of honest judgement...

Has anybody else bothered to listen to them?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 03, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Ok I've given it a good listening to. Listening all the way through at a reasonable volume it's got more of a swing to it than I first thought, but it ultimately lacks the personal touch one experiences with Handel, that is, for however well written it is, it lacks character and real musical invention. That is typical Bach to my ears. Your mp3 sounds is a little jumpy though, but I have allowed for that. It's not a bad piece, but I feel little motivation to listen to it again.

I'll give you two real earth shakers from 'Solomon' and something triumphant from 'Israel and Egypt' that you will want to keep! Have you got any solemn choruses for us Chaszz?

Ok then, now I expect nothing but a glowing report about my German Arias, knowing you are a man of honest judgement...

Has anybody else bothered to listen to them?

Well, you have 'damned it with faint praise' but then that is more than I expected. I'll respond immediately that I hear strong emotion and a lot of musical invention in these 2 choruses, and the main melody of each has been going thru my head repeatedly since I listened to them last before putting them up to the web. Polyphony does not hide or deny melody, just provides more of it.
Is it possible you are not a fan of polyphony in general?

To me, the development of the main melody in each chorus is very emotional and organic, right up to the beautiful climax in each. The trumpets provide the most emotion for me.

I don't believe anyone else has listened to these, but they don't seem to be pounding down the gates for your Handel selections either. Perhaps only Beethoven and Mozart are the real crowd pleasers here.

I'll listen to your Handel arias and report my opinion. I suspect that you hear things in Handel's simplicity which escape me. And I think likewise, when a melody is elaborated into polyphony, it may make your eyes glaze over, as they say.

Nonetheless, I have some even better choruses by Bach to continue with later.

[Chaszz]

[/B]

The two choruses of the Bach Gloria from the B Minor Mass will be avaialble today for the last day. Tomorrow I'll replace them with something else.


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[spaceray]

Originally posted by Rod:
Ok I've given it a good listening to. Listening all the way through at a reasonable volume it's got more of a swing to it than I first thought, but it ultimately lacks the personal touch one experiences with Handel, that is, for however well written it is, it lacks character and real musical invention. That is typical Bach to my ears. Your mp3 sounds is a little jumpy though, but I have allowed for that. It's not a bad piece, but I feel little motivation to listen to it again.

I'll give you two real earth shakers from 'Solomon' and something triumphant from 'Israel and Egypt' that you will want to keep! Have you got any solemn choruses for us Chaszz?

Ok then, now I expect nothing but a glowing report about my German Arias, knowing you are a man of honest judgement...

Has anybody else bothered to listen to them?

I've listened to them and loved them but what are they, where are they from and who is singing please.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I've listened to them and loved them but what are they, where are they from and who is singing please.

Johann Sebastian Bach, from The Mass in B Minor, movements 3 and 4: Gloria: Gloria In Excelsis Deo and Et in Terra Pax. I don't have the CD set with me so will have to give you the artists' names on Monday.

Also these will reman up thru the weekend, and be replaced on Monday, not on Saturday as I previously stated. The URL to play them with is located about a half-dozen messages up.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I've listened to them and loved them but what are they, where are they from and who is singing please.

Whups, I do have the CD set here in my cabinet. It is the Amor Artis Chorale and the English Chamber Orchestra conducted by Johannes Somary, on Vanuard Classics.

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I've listened to them and loved them but what are they, where are they from and who is singing please.

Presuming you are asking about the Handel pieces, they are from a collection of songs that have become known as the '9 German Arias'. Aria1 is "Susser Blumen Amkbraflocken" HWV 204, Aria2 is "Singe, Seele, Gott zum Preise" HWV 206. The recording I have already mentioned is 'Georg Friedrich Handel Deutche Arien' on Capriccio label, cat. no. 10 767. The singer is Ann Monoyios, the musicians are the Berliner Barock-Compagney.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
The two choruses of the Bach Gloria from the B Minor Mass will be avaialble today for the last day. Tomorrow I'll replace them with something else.

Hey, I'm still waiting for your commentry Chaszz! Lest I regard you silence as an acceptance that I was right all along (and you wouldn't be the first!)?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Polyphony does not hide or deny melody, just provides more of it.
Is it possible you are not a fan of polyphony in general?

The price Bach pays for his obsession with polyphony is a lack of melodic strength and diversity of invention. Sometimes a statement becomes bolder using more simple and varied structures. I suppose the advantage (with Bach's style) is a complete 'unity' to the sound across the piece as a whole. A more homgenous effect. But I prefer a more varied diet! I'm not against polyphony per se, but it sould be used only to the extent that the musicallity of the piece is enhanced and not become the object of the music in itself.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 05, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 05, 2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
The price Bach pays for his obsession with polyphony is a lack of melodic strength and diversity of invention. Sometimes a statement becomes bolder using more simple and varied structures. I suppose the advantage is a complete 'unity' to the sound across the piece as a whole. A more homgenous effect. But I prefer a more varied diet! I'm not against polyphony per se, but it sould be used only to the extent that the musicallity of the piece is enhanced and not become the object of the music in itself.

There are plenty of Bach homophonic pieces - air on a G string, the minuet in G or the glorious slow movement from the double violin concerto just to mention a few obvious well known examples - hardly revealing Bach's 'lack of melodic strength'.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
There are plenty of Bach homophonic pieces - air on a G string, the minuet in G or the glorious slow movement from the double violin concerto just to mention a few obvious well known examples - hardly revealing Bach's 'lack of melodic strength'.

In relation to virtually any Handel composition I stand by my point. I accept Bach was not totally free from other influences, but you cannot deny Bach's association with polyphony. This is evident in the many pieces I have heard, and certainly is the case in general comparison with Handel works. Handel himself is no stranger to this technique, but it is used in a more free manner. With Handel I get a more solid sence of melody and harmony. With Bach I always get the impression of thinner textures.

Putting it crudely, for every great melody Bach wrote I could supply 10 from Handel. This is why I said before he wrote more good melodies than Schubert, though who here believed it? The pieces I have presented so far are not really stand out stuff, but average stuff. I have had difficulty in selecting stand out pieces. You will be aware there are enough jems in Messiah alone to fill a 'greatest hits' CD - well, you could do the same with most of his other large scale productions too. Which is why I am deliberately not providing anything from Messiah, or the Coronation Anthems or Fireworks music or Water music etc. Ask me for something from ANY other piece at random and I will prove it! This is the level of quality you find in Handel's output, which must have impressed Beethoven.

To put another angle on things, Handel's music simply has such great spirit and nobility, more akin to Beethoven than Bach. So you should not be surprised at my point of view on this matter. I am not saying Bach wrote bad music, I like some pieces, just that his place as the higher of the 'twin peaks' is not justified from what I have heard.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 05, 2002).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:

Putting it crudely, for every great melody Bach wrote I could supply 10 from Handel. This is why I said before he wrote more good melodies than Schubert, though who here believed it?

At least we've brought another composer into the equation, though the number of 'good melodies' a composer writes is hardly helpful in this context, otherwise Schubert would be greater than Beethoven.

I am not saying Bach wrote bad music, I like some pieces, just that his place as the higher of the 'twin peaks' is not justified from what I have heard.


In your opinion - my opinion is that they are two faces of the same peak. Handel undoubtedly has not been given his full due and I agree entirely with you on this. Great as his popular works such as Messiah are, there is finer music to be found in his output. By the way, I paid my homage to Brook Street the other day!



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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter:

Originally posted by Rod:

Putting it crudely, for every great melody Bach wrote I could supply 10 from Handel. This is why I said before he wrote more good melodies than Schubert, though who here believed it?

At least we've brought another composer into the equation, though the number of 'good melodies' a composer writes is hardly helpful in this context, otherwise Schubert would be greater than Beethoven.

I am not saying Bach wrote bad music, I like some pieces, just that his place as the higher of the 'twin peaks' is not justified from what I have heard.


In your opinion - my opinion is that they are two faces of the same peak. Handel undoubtedly has not been given his full due and I agree entirely with you on this. Great as his popular works such as Messiah are, there is finer music to be found in his output.

' By the way, I paid my homage to Brook Street the other day!'

What is at Brook St,something Handelian?
Can you say why Handel desired to come to Endland and why he stayed, there were a few uncertian moments after Queen Anne died untill a pension conferred by her was confirmed.But was money the only consideration?
Does it seem odd that a German composer writing in the Italian style should become the darling of English opera goers.I didn't think Italian music was going over very well with the English at the time.What changed their minds,the sheer beauty of the music he wrote?

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Does it seem odd that a German composer writing in the Italian style should become the darling of English opera goers.I didn't think Italian music was going over very well with the English at the time.What changed their minds,the sheer beauty of the music he wrote?

Actually, Handel finally stopped writing Italian operas because they were flopping! Part of the reason for that was an unexpected local hit, John Gay's "The Beggar's Opera." But GFH finally got smart and started setting oratorios in English, of which The Messiah is only the most famous.