Gluck's contribution to the Classical style.

[Chaszz]

I have a question which someone here can perhaps answer. From listening to Gluck, it seems to me that in his operas, especially in their orchestral sections, he was writing in a pretty fully developed Classical style years before Haydn. From the acknowledged precusrsors of the style, such as CPE Bach and Johann Christian Bach, it is still a half-step to the full style, but Gluck seems to be already there fully, and not credited with it because he wrote operas instead of symphonies. I’ve looked this up in Charles Rosen’s The Classical Style, but so far haven’t seen much there on Gluck besides discussion of opera-related dramatic issues as they relate to the music. Likewise around the web articles on Gluck are concerned almost entirely with his opera innovations, not really with musical sylistic ones. Perhaps I should be looking at musicologists' works and Gluck biographies. Opera composers’ influence on the development of orchestral music is not lacking, as in Monteverdi’s influence on the orchestra and Wagner’s influence on the orchestra and the symphony. Is Gluck an uncredited example of this kind of opera composer? And perhaps THE key advance contributor to the Classical style?

[Sorrano]

Not being familiar with Gluck, can you see relationships between his operatic output and later French composers, such as Berlioz, Bizet, and Gounod? If I remember correctly, Berlioz was influenced by the orchestrations of the French Grand Opera that preceded him. It may be that Gluck was simply outside the Germanic influences.

[Chaszz]

Berlioz worshipped Gluck and his music, which had fallen out of the repertory of his era. He re-orchestrated Gluck's Orpheus and Eurydice and saw it re-enter the 19th c. French repertory in his version. About other French composers and Gluck I don't know. Re German music, Gluck himself was about as international as you could be, living and working all over Europe and absorbing influences everywhere. He has fallen out of the current repertory except for two operas, the above-mentioned Orpheus and Eurydice, and Iphegenia in Taurus. Orpheus is currently streaming on American PBS Televsion in an updated-to-current-day production featuring the Joffrey Ballet in a major role. This would have pleased Gluck as he often included ballets in his operas. The PBS streaming of this ends on March 19.

Gluck was a reformer who made severe cuts to the Baroque practice of all kinds of extraneous baggage which hindered the dramatic flow of an opera, such as lengthy displays of technique by virtuoso singers which stopped the action completely. His reforms changed the art form permanently. About his constributions to the evolving Classical era style of music in general, I have found no information on this and three other music boards and other websites, and will have to start digging into libraries.

[Peter]

Gluck had a real influence on Mozart's operas. As an aside, here are Mozart's variations on a theme by Gluck. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvz3...nel=AdLChannel
Great to see you back again Chaszz!

[Chaszz]

Thanks, Peter. What do you think of my little notion that Gluck deserves more credit for the mature Classical era style than he receives?

[Chaszz]

Thanks, Peter. What do you think of my little notion that Gluck deserves more credit for the mature Classical era style than he receives?

And thanks for that piece by Mozart played by one of my favorite pianists, Alicia de Larrocha (what is this business of retiring!?) But do answer my question, please.

[Peter]

Thanks, Peter. What do you think of my little notion that Gluck deserves more credit for the mature Classical era style than he receives?

Well I think he is probably overlooked because his influence was primarily in the field of opera and it is generally the case that those who pave the way are neglected.
How many know the names or music of Stamitz or Monn, yet these two played a vital role in the development of the Symphony, and Haydn was as indebted to them as much as Mozart was to Gluck, particularly with Idomineo.

[Chaszz]

I have a bit of supportive testimony from the Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, published in 1911, which is considered a classic edition of that work. This is from an article on Gluck co-written by Sir Donald Francis Tovey, a well-respected musicologist and musician:

'When he [Gluck] was inspired there was no question that he was the first and greatest writer of dramatic music before Mozart. To begin with, he could invent sublime melodies; and his power of producing great musical effects by the simplest means was nothing short of Handelian. Moreover, in his peculiar sphere he deserves the title generally accorded to Haydn of "father of modern orchestration." '

-https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/Gluck,_Christoph_Willibald

"In his peculiar sphere" somewhat diminishes the impact of the remainder of the sentence, especially as many ears might tend to wander back and forth between orchestral music and opera and, being ears rather than brains, might not erect a barrier between those two forms of music such that achievement is one field has little or no bearing on achievement in the other. In fact, some composers have even been known to work in both. Proving that Gluck produced mature Classical style orchestrations BEFORE Haydn may be more difficult, but I will give it a try. The decade of the 1760s is what I think needs to be examined.

[Chaszz]

If anyone is interested, here is a fine production of Gluck's Orpehus and Eurydice on Youtube. The second act, with Orpheus' descent into the underworld to reclaim his dead wife, has two ballets. The first, as he encounters Furies in Hades, is frenetic. But the second ballet, as he encounters friendly spirits who guide him to meet the resurrected Eurydice, is full of beautiful music and gentle, dignified, exhalting dance. The spirits resemble ancient Greek statues that have come gently to life. This is a very beautiful scene, musically and visually. To go directly to this scene, move the circle on the time slider at the bottom to 46:59.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EENw...Montalv%C3%A3o

[gprengel]

I will always adore Gluck for the 2 outstanding overtures for Iphigenie in Aulis and Alceste!

https://youtu.be/ay0CRRkTb1k

https://youtu.be/utkS1mZmnHU

[Chaszz]

I will always adore Gluck for the 2 outstanding overtures for Iphigenie in Aulis and Alceste!

https://youtu.be/ay0CRRkTb1k

https://youtu.be/utkS1mZmnHU

These are great, especially the second one. Thanks.