Bassoons in the Ninth

[Decrepit Poster]

Rehearing one of my favorite interpretations of the Ninth's final movement, I am reminded of something that has puzzled me since first exposed to the work. It occurs near the beginning, after the celli/bass oratorical soli section, after preceding movements are quoted. The Joy theme makes its appearance, again in the cellos with basses at the octave. Some measures later violas join in, as does a bassoon. Only, I have heared this two different ways. In the recording in question a second bassoon is heard, clearly playing a separate part from the first. The video seems to bear this out, at roughly 4:40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDViACDYxnQ

My score shows one bassoon part for this passage, designated with a "1", indicating it is to be played solo (or by the first bassoon section when "monster" orchestras are utilized). A number of my recordings feature only the one scored bassoon part. Others sport the second part.

I believe the second bassoon is playing the double bass line an octave higher. My questions for the learned members of this forum are:

• Are there editions of the Ninth in which a second bassoon part appears in this section of the score?
• Is this, as I tend to suspect, an unscored performance tradition, and if so what is its history?
• Am I full of bologna and hearing things that aren't there?

For what it's worth I prefer the two bassoon version, all else being equal.

[Peter]

First off I think the bassoon solo counter-theme one of the most inspired moments in the finale! The scoring for 2nd bassoon doubling the basses in bars 115-164 is authentic and though it wasn't included in the Breitkopf parts, it was included in the full score.

[Decrepit Poster]

First off I think the bassoon solo counter-theme one of the most inspired moments in the finale! The scoring for 2nd bassoon doubling the basses in bars 115-164 is authentic and though it wasn't included in the Breitkopf parts, it was included in the full score.

Thanks! Most interesting. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that my Beethoven symphony scores are the old Bonanza edition, miniatures bound together in one large-format hardback volume, with black arrows pointing to important musical lines. Those arrows bothered me from the get-go, but otherwise the scored served me well. (I'm woefully out of practice at score reading these days due to years of neglect.)

A glutton for glorious punishment, I decided to spot-check various performances of the ninth available at YouTube, to see / hear which include two bassoon parts during the passage in question. Here are the results:

Performances in which I clearly hear two bassoon parts, sometimes confirmed visually:

• Barenboim / West-Eastern Divan Orchestra (yes - confirmed visually)
• Bernstein / VPO (yes - confirmed visually)
• Vasily Petrenko / National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain (yes - somewhat confirmed visually)
• Gardiner / Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique (yes - audio only)

Performances in which I hear no second bassoon part, some confirmed visually:

• Thielemann / VPO (no - confirmed visually)
• Masur / Leipzig (no - confirmed visually)
• Krzysztof Penderecki / NHK Symphony Orchestra (no - confirmed visually)
• Klemperer / NPO (no - video does not focus on bassoons)
• Toscanini / NBC (no or not noticeable - video does not focus on bassoons)
• Toscanini / NBC (no - audio only)
• Colin Davis / Staatskapelle Dresden (no - audio only)
• Karajan / BPO 1963 (no - audio only)
• Karl Bohm / Bayreuth 1963 (no - audio only)
• Furtwangler - BPO March 1942 (no - audio only)

As with my recordings collection, one-bassoon performances dominate. It's an interesting mix. Old-school conductors seem to favor one bassoon, yet Bernstein utilizes two. Recent performances are more evenly divided between one and two. The one "hipster" performance utilizes two parts.

My sampling was random and in no way controlled or scientific.

[AeolianHarp]

First off I think the bassoon solo counter-theme one of the most inspired moments in the finale! The scoring for 2nd bassoon doubling the basses in bars 115-164 is authentic and though it wasn't included in the Breitkopf parts, it was included in the full score.

Did Beethoven intend there to be two bassoons?

[Peter]

Well yes, the movement is scored for 2 bassoons. In the autograph he writes solo and then next to that col B which means with the Bass.
http://beethoven.staatsbibliothek-be.../9/4/1/22.html

[Decrepit Poster]

Well yes, the movement is scored for 2 bassoons. In the autograph he writes solo and then next to that col B which means with the Bass.
http://beethoven.staatsbibliothek-be.../9/4/1/22.html

Oho! My score lacks the "col B" designation. (I just double-checked). I see "fag" (fagott/fagotto/bassoon) to the immediate left of "col". Can't make out the word or words left of that. I do notice what might be a colon.

I wonder if some consider it to have been added after the fact? It appears to have been written by a different pencil or with a lighter touch. Maybe that's why not all utilize it?

[AeolianHarp]

Well yes, the movement is scored for 2 bassoons. In the autograph he writes solo and then next to that col B which means with the Bass.
http://beethoven.staatsbibliothek-be.../9/4/1/22.html

Well if Beethoven wrote it for 2 bassoons, then two bassoons it should be.

[hal9000]

First off I think the bassoon solo counter-theme one of the most inspired moments in the finale!

Yes!

[Peter]

Oho! My score lacks the "col B" designation. (I just double-checked). I see "fag" (fagott/fagotto/bassoon) to the immediate left of "col". Can't make out the word or words left of that. I do notice what might be a colon.

I wonder if some consider it to have been added after the fact? It appears to have been written by a different pencil or with a lighter touch. Maybe that's why not all utilize it?

Here are two resources that may be of use:
http://www.orchestralbassoon.com/bee...llery/12280879

Del Mar, Jonathan (1981) Orchestral Variations: Confusion and Error in the Orchestral Repertoire London: Eulenburg Books, p. 43

[Decrepit Poster]

Here are two resources that may be of use:
http://www.orchestralbassoon.com/bee...llery/12280879

Del Mar, Jonathan (1981) Orchestral Variations: Confusion and Error in the Orchestral Repertoire London: Eulenburg Books, p. 43

Thanks again. The case for two bassoons grows stronger and stronger. I wish the Del Mar book wasn't so darn expensive.

The Orchestral Bassoon page is informative. It seems a bit odd that one playable example, Reiner/CSO, doesn't utilize the second bassoon. With Cleveland it was hard to tell...sometimes I thought I heard it, sometimes not. The Hanover Band recording is an acoustic mess...can't make out much of anything. It's present in all the rest, strongly so in the BBC National Orchestra rendition.

The question remains as to why the second bassoon is absent in so many performances. The logical assumption is that early printed editions ignored the "col B" designation (as does my score). But is it true? One would think that, if the matter was cut and dry, all modern performances by reputable conductors/orchestras would include the second part.

Heh...I love this sort of thing. I've long had a fascination with orchestration, instrumentation, and performance practice. On the other hand, I stink at theory/composition. No aptitude for 'em whatsoever. (Well, maybe a little for very basic theory, but certainly not composition.)

[Decrepit Poster]

Eureka!, and a big fat juicy woot! to top it off. I have, after much fruitless web research, at long last unearthed the facts of this 'earth-shaking' controversy. Alas! It is copyrighted material. I can't provide a simple cut and paste quote. Nor do I feel justified in providing a direct link, my source being found on a sales site. But I CAN tell you how to get there.

Visit Amazon.com. Type "Beethoven Symphony 9 Nicholas Cook" (minus quotation marks) into its search bar. Select the top result. Click "look inside". Scroll down to Appendix 2, Some controversies, IV 115 (page 116). There it is, in detail!

Looks to be a generally useful volume. I might well acquire it at some point.

[Decrepit Poster]

Doh! After spending so much time tracking down an official explanation for this performance inconsistency...not that I minded in the least...today I notice it's spelled out on the Ninth Symphony's Wikipedia page! Why did I not think to look there?