Carl Maria von Weber

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Are you so short on memory, Rod? Don't you recall that Beethoven was an essential part of the "myth" that Robert was proposing and YOU were the first to squawk at the inference?

Yes and, to my mind anyway, I successfully rebutted his notions re Beethoven, even to his unbending mind, and they ceased comming from him. Either way I just stopped responding to his remarks after a certain point. But I had no problems there either way, he was talking about Beethoven at least. Think of all the authentic mp3 posts here that were virtually ignored? Eventually over time they just slip away from view. It's easy if you try.

But considering Roberts ventures re Mozart/Haydn, I thought they were totaly off-topic and they bored me after a while, like I am bored with many of the comments from other people here, but they only got so long because Peter and Agnes, amongst others, were quite happy to argue with him at length. Compare these with my exchanges with Robert re Beethoven/Luchesi! I wish Peter and Agnes felt so confident in their knowledge of Mozart music to wrap the matter up so neatly and swiftly! Yet the fact that they too were forced to argue based on historical evidence guaranteed a mutual and prolonged impasse.

I've said all I'm going to say on the matter, it's not my forum and I'm not the moderator. But there seem to be double standards in operation here.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-24-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Come off it Rod you hardly ever complained throughout a whole year of almost daily postings by Robert that rarely had anything to do with Beethoven, but now the odd comment on Weber has you protesting that we're not dealing specifically with Beethoven. You yourself have also frequently posted on Handel with direct links to your forum and mp3s. I have no objection to that and I welcome the diversity of discussion but don't criticse others just because certain composers mean nothing to you.

To attempt to restrict this forum entirely to Beethoven and to frown upon any thread that doesn't directly deal with him is not what this forum is about. The rules state quite clearly that topics relating to classical music in general are allowed. As for the reason for Robert's being banned I made it quite clear that it was not the substance of his remarks in themselves, but his persistance - there is no relation whatsoever to the postings of Haydnfan and Agnes Selby who are polite, informed and welcome members of this forum, who are not obsessed with just one topic ad infinitum.

OK one more post on the matter...

I have never raised a single post topic relating specifically to Handel as far as I can remember. In fact many of my Handel remarks were induced as a result of comments from other people here. Even then Beethoven usually appears somewhere along the line even in these moments. I never overplay the Handel card. As a proportion of total postings I suggest not one person here, yourself included, has a higher ratio of Beethoven content as opposed to Handel or any other composer, and I have provided dozens and dozens of Beethoven tracks with text for your main site over many years, and many more still from within the forum.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-24-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I am bored with many of the comments from other people here, but they only got so long because Peter and Agnes, amongst others, were quite happy to argue with him at length.

I've said all I'm going to say on the matter, it's not my forum and I'm not the moderator. But there seem to be double standards in operation here.

For the record a quick search reveals 47 topics in which the name Weber is mentioned, at least 200 for Handel (the search facility does not display more than that).

There is also one topic started by yourself where you were quite happy to debate the merits of Handel vs Bach at great length - 7 pages of posts. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000653.html

Of course your contributions are valued as is all you have done in the past for the forum especially the sharing of mp3s, so I suggest we draw a line here and move on.

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'Man know thyself'

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
For the record a quick search reveals 47 topics in which the name Weber is mentioned, at least 200 for Handel (the search facility does not display more than that).

There is also one topic started by yourself where you were quite happy to debate the merits of Handel vs Bach at great length - 7 pages of posts. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000653.html

Of course your contributions are valued as is all you have done in the past for the forum especially the sharing of mp3s, so I suggest we draw a line here and move on.

And this was back in 2002, and if you look you will notice that this was the continuation from another chain responding to a post by someone else. You may also remember that as a result of this experience I started my own Handel site to continue the debate off-site, so to speak.

I wondered if you can look through the thousands of post of mine here and count the references to Handel as a proportion to the references to Beethoven, but I'll draw the line and move on.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yes and, to my mind anyway, I successfully rebutted his notions re Beethoven, even to his unbending mind, and they ceased comming from him. Either way I just stopped responding to his remarks after a certain point. But I had no problems there either way, he was talking about Beethoven at least. Think of all the authentic mp3 posts here that were virtually ignored? Eventually over time they just slip away from view. It's easy if you try.

But considering Roberts ventures re Mozart/Haydn, I thought they were totaly off-topic and they bored me after a while, like I am bored with many of the comments from other people here, but they only got so long because Peter and Agnes, amongst others, were quite happy to argue with him at length. Compare these with my exchanges with Robert re Beethoven/Luchesi! I wish Peter and Agnes felt so confident in their knowledge of Mozart music to wrap the matter up so neatly and swiftly! Yet the fact that they too were forced to argue based on historical evidence guaranteed a mutual and prolonged impasse.

I've said all I'm going to say on the matter, it's not my forum and I'm not the moderator. But there seem to be double standards in operation here.

The issue is not whether Mozart/Haydn are on topic or not. The issue is that Mr. Newman was relentless in presenting controversial material without providing sufficient backing ad infinitum. Anything relative to the time period and trends of Beethoven's era IS relevant--and anything that has had effect upon his music, such as the music of Handel is relevant. But to spend a year discussing something in an abtrusive manner, brushing off all other research to defend something based upon assumption and conjecture is not productive for this or any forum. Look what happened to the Mozart forum.

Your posts, Rod, are instructive and beneficial, whether they are about Handel or Beethoven. And whatever we can understand about Beethoven's contemporaries or his predecessors only helps us better understand why he wrote what he wrote.

Your contributions on this forum are priceless; the many, many excerpts that you've posted demonstrate that. Personally, I regret not having taken advantage to discuss them at length, that is my fault.

But perhaps you are correct, again, in that it is useless to continue posting on this subject. Back to Weber, then.

[Nightklavier]

Ok, Sorrano, maybe I can bring this back to Weber:

Previous posters have specified that Weber went to Baden to meet Beethoven in 1823. I have a quote of what he (Weber) had to say about it:

"[He] received me with an affection that was touching; he embraced me in the heartiest way at least 6-7 times and finally exclaimed with great enthusiasm: 'Ah, you're a devil of a fellow, an excellent fellow!' We dined together, very cheerfully and pleasurably. This crude, repelling man really paid me court, served me at table as attentively as if I had been his lady, etc., in short, this day will always be a highly remarkable one for me, as for all those who were present. It quite elated me to see myself being overwhelmed with such affectionate attentions by this great spirit. How depressing is his deafness; one has to write everything down for him."

I've also something from Berlioz on "Der Freischutz":

"It is difficult to find, in searching the new or old school, a score as irreproachable as 'Der Freischutz,' as constantly interesting from beginning to end; whose melody has more freshness in the various shapes it assumes, whose rhythms are more striking, whose harmonic invention is more varied, more forcible, whose use of massed voices and instruments is more energetic without effort, more suave without affectation. From the beginning of the overture to the last chord of the final chorus, it is impossible for me to find a bar the omission or the change of which I would consider desirable. Intelligence, imagination, genius shine everywhere with a radiance, the force of which might dazzle any but eagle eyes, if a sensitiveness, inexhaustible as well as restrained, did not soften its glare, covering the listener with the gentle folds of its veil."

Lastly, here's an interesting quote from a contemporary about Euryanthe:

"The music is horrible. In the great days of Greece, this subversion of all melody, this rape of beauty, would have been punished by the state. Such music is a criminal offense. It would bring forth monsters if it were gradually to achieve universal acceptance. This work can please only fools or idiots or scholars or highway robbers or murderers."

[HaydnFan]

Very interesting an poignant, Nightklavier. When you say the last is a quote from a contemporary, do you mean contemporary from our times or a contemporary of Weber's?

[Peter]

Weber was particularly unimpressed by Beethoven's late works which he described as 'bewildering chaos' but admired the earlier compositions, presenting a highly successful production of Fidelio at Dresden in 1823 having previously introduced it to Prague in 1814 (the first performance of the opera outside Vienna). Beethoven was himself impressed by Der Freischutz, reputedly saying "I would never have thought that mild little man was capable of this".

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-24-2006).]

[Nightklavier]

HaydnFan - I meant a contemporary of Weber, one who saw the first performance of Euryanthe in Vienna.