Therese Von Brunsvik and Immortal beloved

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
- am I alone in thinking that the letters suggest there is an obstacle to their relationship and if not does anyone have any theories as to what that obstacle could possibly be other than the fact the lady was married?

The obstacle could have been marriage, my point is that i do not believe B could have undertaken any lengthy affair with a married woman. Obstacles in Beethoven's case could have been things other than an existing marriage however. i doubt many fathers of the Gentry would have liked a chap such as Beethoven as their son in law! How do you think B's various other 'affairs' fell apart? For what It's worth, I think Schindler believed Guicciardi was on B's mind to the end of his days!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[AlteGrafin]

I would like to address these "irrefutable facts":
1)'An die Geliebte' (To the Beloved) WoO 140, was composed by Beethoven in December 1811; in the corner of the manuscript, in Antonie's writing are the words "Requested by me from the author on March 2, 1812"

Exactly. REQUESTED BY HER. He did not give her this song, and there is no reason to believe he wrote it for her. Solomon's assertion that this was the only piece Beethoven arranged for guitar (Brentano was a guitarist) is not true.

2)After Beethoven's death, two portraits were discovered in his desk - One is of the Countess Giuletta Guicciardi and the other was previously thought to be Countess Erdody but is now confirmed to be Antonie Brentano

Nothing has been confirmed. This is just Solomon's opinion which unfortunately is often accepted as fact when it should not be. The connection to Erdody goes back quite far, but there is no proof it is her, either. The clothing suggests that the portrait was painted well before 1812.

3)Beethoven's Tagebuch of 1812 refers to a woman called "A" and "T" in passionate terms.
No, it does not. "A" was taken out of context and belongs to a statement Beethoven made about his working conditions. If you look at the entire statement, and not just the line quoted by Solomon, it is plain that Beethoven was NOT referring to a beloved. As for the "T," it could have been Therese Brunswick, as well as Antonie (Toni) Brentano, or neither of them. Since the Tagebuch is NOT in Beethoven's handwriting, the person who copied it also could have made an error. It just as likely could have been an "F" as a "T" and referred to Fanny Giannatasio, who was infatuated with Beethoven at the time of this entry.

[AlteGrafin]

Rod wrote: "I don't think Beethoven would be the first man in history to fall in love with a married woman, but I don't think it makes him the scoundrel that you suggest this implies."
I agree, but there's a big difference between a married woman like Antonie and one like Marie Erdody or Josephine Brunswick. Antonie was married to Beethoven's FRIEND. Erdody was estranged from her husband for years (only technically married) and Josephine was desperately unhappy and married to a scoundrel. IF Beethoven had loved Antonie, he would have kept it to himself and not written a 10-page letter her husband was likely to find, nor have gone to be with her and her husband, child, and maid for five long weeks! The Antonie theory is preposterous. Of course, the latest theory, about Amalie Esterhazy isn't much better.

[AlteGrafin]

I might also add that a mere infatuation with the lady would likely not have caused Beethoven to use the "du" form of address in the letter. Although the use in 19th century German was somewhat erratic, most times it was reserved for someone with whom one was very intimate. Most of the time, if a man used "du" with a woman, or vice versa, it was because they had become lovers. I might note that Maria Erdody used the "du" form in a letter written to Beethoven. Beethoven used "du" with Bettina Brentano, but not Antonie (not that I'm suggesting that shallow ne'er-do-well Bettina is the IB!)

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
I suggest that Beethoven being in love with Antonie Brentano does not necessarily imply consumation. I would also question why we would have to look elsewhere if the relationship with this lady had been consumated - would it have been any more moral in Beethoven's eyes, to have had a sexual relationship with an unmarried as opposed to a married woman out of wedlock?

Perhaps an anecdote I read is nothing more than just another B story invented by imaginative minds. The story goes that B was in a resaurant with friends. They got the waitress to flirt with him, then he got up and boxed her ears for her inappropriate behavior. I believe B was a moral and spiritual man, not caving into those ways that betray his morals.

[Joy]

Let's not forget we are talking about the 18th and 19th Century. Very different way of thinking I believe. It's true Beethoven might not have had a different matter of opinion where morals are concerned whether the woman was married or not for consumation. I believe he did a lot of 'dreaming' and not much else with all the females he was speculated to have 'relations' with. It is not known if he even mailed the famous 'IB' letter. No doubt he truly was in love with someone but whether that person knew it or not is a matter for theories.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
It is not known if he even mailed the famous 'IB' letter. No doubt he truly was in love with someone but whether that person knew it or not is a matter for theories.

I think a line such as "Be calm for only by calmly considering our lives can we achieve our purpose to live together" suggests she knew!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by AlteGrafin:
I would like to address these "irrefutable facts":
1)'An die Geliebte' (To the Beloved) WoO 140, was composed by Beethoven in December 1811; in the corner of the manuscript, in Antonie's writing are the words "Requested by me from the author on March 2, 1812"

Exactly. REQUESTED BY HER. He did not give her this song, and there is no reason to believe he wrote it for her.

Is it not strange that she should request a
song to the beloved a few months before Beethoven writes a letter to the Immortal beloved and also be in Karlsbad at the right time? I haven't stated that Antonie Brentano was the immortal beloved, only that she seems the most likely candidate, a view shared by Barry Cooper as well as Solomon. Yes you can easily dismiss the evidence, but you cannot provide a stronger case for anyone else.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by AlteGrafin:
Rod wrote: "I don't think Beethoven would be the first man in history to fall in love with a married woman, but I don't think it makes him the scoundrel that you suggest this implies."

I agree, but there's a big difference between a married woman like Antonie and one like Marie Erdody or Josephine Brunswick. Antonie was married to Beethoven's FRIEND. .

For the record ROD did not write the above quote, the quote in fact refers to Rod's accusqion of B being a potential scoundrel, should Solomon (and Peter!) be correct.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't think you can control being in love with someone either - it is lust that you can control and of course people usually confuse the two. You can't will yourself to love someone.

I disagree. I claim you cannot love someone without willing it. Otherwise, how could we ever love our parents or siblings or neighbors? Love of a woman by a man is an extension of this. It is the decision to put the good of another before yourself. But perhaps I am simply being picky about definitions.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
I disagree. I claim you cannot love someone without willing it....

Chris is a hippy you see Peter? Love has meaning...love is in the air...love is in your hair.. yeah...


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 02-26-2002).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think a line such as "Be calm for only by calmly considering our lives can we achieve our purpose to live together" suggests she knew!

Duly noted. If the letter was actually sent what was it doing back in Beethoven's possession? Did she send it back to him? And why? Even if she did reject him, why wouldn't she just burn the letter. Why send it back? Or was it never sent at all?

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chris:
I disagree. I claim you cannot love someone without willing it. Otherwise, how could we ever love our parents or siblings or neighbors? Love of a woman by a man is an extension of this. It is the decision to put the good of another before yourself. But perhaps I am simply being picky about definitions.

How do you 'will' yourself to be in love with someone? I think it just happens. The feelings are just there for one reason or another. You don't just sit there and think, 'all right, I'm going to make myself love my parents'(or whoever).

[Chris]

As I said, I believe love is putting the other person before yourself - that's how you love. You can choose to do it or you can choose not to do it.

Simply thinking a person is beautiful, enjoying spending time with a person, and sharing views and interests with that person does not mean you love him or her. It means you are attracted to that person. It may be more than lust or infatuation, but I think love requires more of a person - it requires effort and action.

Hippie? On the contrary, my dear Rod; I think my view of love is the least liberal of all.

But don't let me sidetrack the thread. If I wanted to do that, I would simply post a three-headed monkey.



See?

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 02-26-2002).]

[Stephen J. Wade]

Hey!!!! I wondered where my monkey ran off to!! hehehe
Who can truly follow his/her heart? I tried to will myself to love a woman, married her and set out to follow the conventions of society. All the while a burning inside me, a calling if you will of primal desire; these passions, although real to me were stifled due to societial restrictions. As in Ludwigs case, his desire for someone, possibly married, possibly of a different status/class were the restrictions he had to live with. Life is so much more precious, more enlightened when hearts are open to express true feelings one to another. The human heart knows not law or boundaries.....this I discovered in the arms of another man.

Now where DID you find those monkeys!?! hehe