Songs which are de facto a copy from or variations on classic composers' works

[atserriotserri]

It has happened to me quite some times and afterwards I forget it, but this time I won't give it the chance.

I was listening to a Erik Satie cd, and its track 5 (danse de travers III - pièces froides) I've thought "... I know that!! A hard rock guitar player with a synth guitar sounding like a piano!!" After some time I've remembered it: Steve Morse, and the record is named "coast to coast", don't remember the song. I must listen to that cd again, but it's so obvious, for God sake!

Yngwie Malmsteen, for example, mentions in all (at least all that I have) Monteverdi, Paganini, Vivaldi, Bach... and plays on his concerts Paganini's capriccios, doesn't hide it.

Question is that Steve Morse has produced a record of classical pieces interpreted on guitar and played on it (I don't have listened to it but as curiosity, tracks are: Steve Morse (Händel's "Water Music"), John Petrucci ("Flight of the Bumblebee"), Marty Friedman (Messenet's "Meditation from Thais"), Steve Howe (Bach's "Chantte 140"), Peter Frampton (Bach's Concerto in F Minor), Trevor Rabin (Beethoven's 9th), Dweezil Zappa (Suites from Bizet's "Carmen"), Al Di Meola (Piazzolla's Tango), Albert Lee (Händel's "Largo"), Jorma Kaukonen (Pachelbel's Canon), Mike Stern (Satie's "Gymnopedie #1") )

My question is: Does he expect that his audience will never listen to the music that influences him besides this kind of records and no one will notice, thus allowing him to pose as a good composer or intellectual, not just a talented guitar player?

[Peter]

I'm not sure about the motive, presumably money comes into it somewhere, but this is similar to our discussion a while back on arrangements. I'm not a fan of any arrangements unless they're the work of the composer, however if they are particularly well done as in the case of Liszt's Beethoven symphonies I make an exception!

I really don't see the point of arrangements now - in the 19th century it was basically the only way most people could get to enjoy good music on a regular basis, but today?

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:


I really don't see the point of arrangements now - in the 19th century it was basically the only way most people could get to enjoy good music on a regular basis, but today?

I agree with you about not being a fan of arrangements but, as you say, in Liszt's case he was a genius in arranging.
Could you explain to me the above sentence that it was the only way people could enjoy good music? I don't follow. Probably tired. Time for bed.


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Beyond Within]

What Yngwie Malmsteen does is ridiculous: the guy will take entire phrases without any change to the original and paste them in between the second rate baroque material that he writes. I dont think he is trying to pass off as the composer who wrote it, I think he just thinks 'it sounds cool'. There is another guitarist, called "Alexi Laiho" who is very 'neo-classical', on his earlier material he did a lot of what Malmsteen does. However after that he learned how to write excellent melodies in that style. You should check him out if you are into the shred guitar genre.

Paul Gilbert did an amazing tapping interpretation of one of the four seasons. That is probably the most succesful example of a electric guitarist playing classical music.



[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 09-30-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
I agree with you about not being a fan of arrangements but, as you say, in Liszt's case he was a genius in arranging.
Could you explain to me the above sentence that it was the only way people could enjoy good music? I don't follow. Probably tired. Time for bed.

I said it was the only way MOST people got to hear music - they didn't have cds! For example, Beethoven's Eroica wasn't performed in France until 1828. Even in Vienna the Violin concerto received only a couple of performances in Beethoven's lifetime - this is why arrangements were so in demand, so ordinary people could play these works in their own homes. Few people would get the chance to go to the opera, but they knew the popular tunes through arrangements and barrel organs grinding them out on street corners.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-30-2004).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
I said it was the only way MOST people got to hear music - they didn't have cds! For example, Beethoven's Eroica wasn't performed in France until 1828. Even in Vienna the Violin concerto received only a couple of performances in Beethoven's lifetime - this is why arrangements were so in demand, so ordinary people could play these works in their own homes. Few people would get the chance to go to the opera, but they knew the popular tunes through arrangements and barrel organs grinding them out on street corners.

Yea, I noticed the 'MOST' part, I just excluded that word yesterday in my post. Thank goodness for modern technology, CD's, internet, etc. That was even happening in the early part of the 20th century where people were playing these arrangements at home, nearly every home had a piano back then. I know our family (and grandma's)always did. People, even then, still weren't going to concerts as much like they do today. Anyway, I understand what you meant better today. It was a long day yesterday!


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[atserriotserri]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
What Yngwie Malmsteen does is ridiculous: the guy will take entire phrases without any change to the original and paste them in between the second rate baroque material that he writes. I dont think he is trying to pass off as the composer who wrote it, I think he just thinks 'it sounds cool'. There is another guitarist, called "Alexi Laiho" who is very 'neo-classical', on his earlier material he did a lot of what Malmsteen does. However after that he learned how to write excellent melodies in that style. You should check him out if you are into the shred guitar genre.

Paul Gilbert did an amazing tapping interpretation of one of the four seasons. That is probably the most succesful example of a electric guitarist playing classical music.

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 09-30-2004).]

I'll check the guitarists you mention. I've got some mixed emotions with Yngwie: He's done irregular records, some of them bad (which is negative) but there are some brilliant songs (which is positive), but it's evident his use of entire phrases (which is negative and also compensates the previous), he doesn't hide his "sources" (which is positive), but he although is very skilled (pos.), is very repetitive (neg.) and the worst concert I've ever attended was his one (worse).

What about Robert Fripp?

[urtextmeister]

Sometimes it is refreshing and clarifying to hear a piece in a different arrangement. I have always enjoyed Glenn Gould's transcription of Wagner orchestra music, the Cambridge Buskers doing the William Tell overture, the Roches singing the Hallelujah chorus, etc. I once heard the Bach double violin concerto without the orchestra or continuo and it was an ear opening experience.

I think this is what Glenn Gould was after: "you've heard this piece a thousand times played the same way. Try approaching it from this angle."

Of course a lot of transcriptions are just plain annoying. Switched on Bach, Classical Barbra...

[Beyond Within]

Alexi Laiho performs in a band called "Children of Bodom". I will warn you now: Everything is atrocious but the lead playing. I suggest you buy 'Follow the Reaper' (yes I know the title is stupid). There are a LOT of really amazing neo-classical melodies on that disk. His leads are some of the finest in all of shred.

Also, have you heard Jeff Loomis? Check his playing out if you are a guitarist.

You may want to email me for the continuation of this discussion, I dont want to try the patience of the Beethoven crowd!

JohnRArellano@aol.com. I will be pleased to hear from you.