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    #16
    Originally posted by Amalie:
    In my view, romanticism it is a bit like the difference in literature between the age of Dr.Johnson and the age of Wordsworth.
    Wordsworth was writing the lyrical ballads only a few years after the great Dr. Johnson's death, but what a change!
    Dr. Johnson is the epitomy of 18th century classicism, profoundly learned and trenchent and with emotion firmly subordinated to style and delivery.
    Wordsworth had no less a grasp of blank verse than Dr. Johnson, but we are suddenly in a new world with the lyrical ballads, a world of lonliness, exile, tagedy, suffering and death, we cannot say that one writer is greater than the other, but we can say that a door was opened by Wordsworth into an immesurably vaster universe of human emotion and feeling than professionally at least was acknowledged by Dr. Johnson.
    Wordsworth spoke to the marginalised people in his native lake district that he met on the roads, discharged prisoners, disabled veterans from the wars, lunatics, wronged women and the destitute. He shows up to us close and personal these desparate people who are of course only images of ourselves. He does not show us the typical classical concerns of English poetry hitherto, with Gods and hero's and nymphs disporting themselves. I greatly admire and enjoy classical English poetry and prose, but it has to be said that Wordsworth's world was an immensely more profound and moving experience and we are all in a sense still the heirs of that today, for good or ill. There is of course parallels between the worlds of Haydn and Beethoven, which are similarly contiguous but profoundly different.
    A point I would make of course is that Beethoven was the first composer really to go out into the open air and celebrate the natural world like Wordsworth did.
    The trouble with Haydn and Dr. Johnson was that though they both had a profound understanding of life professionally their work is strictly indoor or of the chamber and one often feels that it is a bit too cloistered and lack fresh air.

    So we could say classicism equals indoors, and romanticism equals outdoors, Take for instance 'Folk Music' which is the archetypal outdoor music spurned by classical composers on the whole, but incorporated by Beethoven in his symphonic works and elsewhere.

    [This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 07, 2004).]
    Amalie:

    "classical indoors- romanticism outdoors"
    I like this, but it is not true in all cases. I have always felt that asthetically, music and painting seem to co-habitat the best. The baroque painters to the music of the day, classical, romantic, impressionist, expressionist... etc,etc.

    But, literature can be its own animal at times. Before Wordsworth, writers like Milton and Keats sung the songs of nature beautifully and very romantically. Even Cicero's "Nature of the God's" (book 2) has a romantic feel and inflection. Goethe's writing seems to fit the music of Beethovens best in my humble opinion.

    The first true moment of Romanticism (in my view) was ushered in at the first performance of the 'Eroica' symphony. Nothing was or felt like that piece at any point in art history. It seems to have come from another world really.

    ------------------
    v russo

    [This message has been edited by v russo (edited February 08, 2004).]
    v russo

    Comment


      #17
      Although everything I could contribute to this thread has already been said...

      "First of all, why do Romantics always assume 'emotion' can only be defined with a state of sadness ?!? I don't get this, is Haydn music, which is filled with joy and serenity (even nobility) all of a sudden superficial ?!? Isn't joy just as much an emotion as sadness ?!? "

      That statement rules.

      And also, Mozarts "Sonata Facile" and 39-41 symphonies are more moving to me than anything composed in the Romantic Era. His love comes through in the absolute mastery with which he creates his music. Anyone that creates something that perfect has to put a lot of love into it, Mozart just wasnt screaching violins in your ears begging for your attention
      Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
      That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
      And then is heard no more. It is a tale
      Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
      Signifying nothing. -- Act V, Scene V, Macbeth.

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by v russo:
        Amalie:

        "classical indoors- romanticism outdoors"
        I like this, but it is not true in all cases. I have always felt that asthetically, music and painting seem to co-habitat the best. The baroque painters to the music of the day, classical, romantic, impressionist, expressionist... etc,etc.

        But, literature can be its own animal at times. Before Wordsworth, writers like Milton and Keats sung the songs of nature beautifully and very romantically. Even Cicero's "Nature of the God's" (book 2) has a romantic feel and inflection. Goethe's writing seems to fit the music of Beethovens best in my humble opinion.

        The first true moment of Romanticism (in my view) was ushered in at the first performance of the 'Eroica' symphony. Nothing was or felt like that piece at any point in art history. It seems to have come from another world really.

        Yes, as I have mentioned that writers before Wordsworth appreciated nature, (I am not sure about Milton, though Satan is a great figure of the natural world, and there are marvellous descriptions of the natural world in Paradise lost, but Milton is really a classicist at heart). The English romantics were the first to elevate the appreciation of nature to the status of a religion or cult.
        I agree you could take the Eroica as a start of romanticism, but personally I think it begins on the European mainland with Geothe's sorrows of young Werther in the early 1770's and in England with the Lyrical ballads of the early 1791.
        Goethe is so incredible, I would like to have time to read more about him.



        [This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 09, 2004).]
        ~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~

        Comment


          #19

          A big thankyou to everyone for your informed and interesting exchange of views on this thread, it has been very helpful, and fascinating, even though I need a life jacket at times.



          [This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 09, 2004).]
          ~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~

          Comment


            #20
            There's so much being said here that I don't have time to read it all, much less comment on it (for which some members may be grateful). But three things I must say.

            One, before the classical era, music was not solely a religious pursuit. Much time and effort was expended on secular forms, often originally based on dance movements. The concerto was widely developed in Baroque times. Even Bach, once he had written enough canatas to make up a few yearly cycles, retired in spirit if not in actuality from his church cantorship and spend the last 15 or 20 years of his life engaged mostly with secular music. His pride during these years was his leadership of the Collegium Musicum, a professional/amateur organization which gave secular concerts on Friday nights. His two greatest late works were the Musical Offering and the Art of Fugue, both of which were secular works.

            Two, the Romantics were just as interested in mythology as were the classicists.
            Themes from mythology were widely used, but interpreted more emotionally. Also the power of the Scientific and then the Industrial Revolutions brought on a fascination with Prometheus, as in works by both Shelley and Beethoven.

            Third, classicism with a small 'c' should not be equated with 'indoors'. Perhaps in eighteenth century music, to an extent(though even there, the 'sturm und drang' of Mozart and Haydn may suggest nature). But the most classical work of all, the Greek temple, has tree trunks symbolized as fluted columns. Ancient Greek and Roman poetry is suffused with nature and its moods. And great European painters like Titian, Poussin and Claude Lorrain were quite classical in style and subject matter, and at the same time very much inspired by woods, fields, streams, mountains, etc.



            [This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited February 09, 2004).]
            See my paintings and sculptures at Saatchiart.com. In the search box, choose Artist and enter Charles Zigmund.

            Comment


              #21
              Chaszz,

              I question one of your statements in particular:
              Do you really think there were as many operas, let's say, based on mythology in the romantic era as baroque and classical? With the exception of Wagner's Nordic thing, the vast majority of romantic operas explore the human condition, not Gods and Godesses...

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Amalie:
                Yes, as I have mentioned that writers before Wordsworth appreciated nature, (I am not sure about Milton, though Satan is a great figure of the natural world, and there are marvellous descriptions of the natural world in Paradise lost, but Milton is really a classicist at heart). The English romantics were the first to elevate the appreciation of nature to the status of a religion or cult.
                I agree you could take the Eroica as a start of romanticism, but personally I think it begins on the European mainland with Geothe's sorrows of young Werther in the early 1770's and in England with the Lyrical ballads of the early 1791.
                Goethe is so incredible, I would like to have time to read more about him.



                [This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 09, 2004).]
                Goethe's poetry is amazing. I often return to it again and again. You feel him using and seeing nature to get at the divine mysteries of the universe. Goethe's best work points skyward. ...UP!



                ------------------
                v russo
                v russo

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by v russo:
                  Goethe's poetry is amazing. I often return to it again and again. You feel him using and seeing nature to get at the divine mysteries of the universe. Goethe's best work points skyward. ...UP!

                  v.russo,
                  My understanding is that Goethe's works runs to about 300 or more volumes and less that a quarter has been translated into English. What a scandal!
                  I love his famous poem about stillness in the forest and how nothing stirs he tells us to be quiet or still, ('ruhe' means more that this and English cannot really catch the fullness of its meaning), and there is a wonderful sense in which we are unsure he means we will shortly be phyisically and emotionally still, or whether we may in fact be eternally at peace, ie. 'Dead'.
                  The sheer intelligence and genius of Goethe takes the breath away. It musn't be forgotten that he was really a scientist who had this theory that everything was in a porcess of growth and maturity. I am sure that even today, certainly in the English speaking world, we have not got the full measure of this great genius, and of course, Beethoven recongnised this.
                  Though of course 'B' was rather scathing about Goethe's polished manners.
                  I suppose Goethe might support Peter's arguement, because though he was undoubtedly romantic in outlook and sensibility, the sheer scale and scope of his intellectual acheivements takes him way outside any bracketing or intellectual labeling, and I guess he is really a renaissance like figure, who literally is the master of everything in the material and natural world.

                  All for now
                  Amalie.>




                  [This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 10, 2004).]
                  ~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Amalie:
                    v.russo,
                    My understanding is that Goethe's works runs to about 300 or more volumes and less that a quarter has been translated into English. What a scandal!
                    I love his famous poem about stillness in the forest and how nothing stirs he tells us to be quiet or still, ('ruhe' means more that this and English cannot really catch the fullness of its meaning), and there is a wonderful sense in which we are unsure he means we will shortly be phyisically and emotionally still, or whether we may in fact be eternally at peace, ie. 'Dead'.
                    The sheer intelligence and genius of Goethe takes the breath away. It musn't be forgotten that he was really a scientist who had this theory that everything was in a porcess of growth and maturity. I am sure that even today, certainly in the English speaking world, we have not got the full measure of this great genius, and of course, Beethoven recongnised this.
                    Though of course 'B' was rather scathing about Goethe's polished manners.
                    I suppose Goethe might support Peter's arguement, because though he was undoubtedly romantic in outlook and sensibility, the sheer scale and scope of his intellectual acheivements takes him way outside any bracketing or intellectual labeling, and I guess he is really a renaissance like figure, who literally is the master of everything in the material and natural world.

                    All for now
                    Amalie.>

                    [This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 10, 2004).]
                    your point about being un-lable-like in reference to Goethe's work is great to hear. I feel, the most special and timeless art is often "un-label-able" in many ways...

                    My favorite Goethe poem is the one where he finds that moment of eternity just for an instant after searching for it earlier in the piece. It ends with the line "...the moment is eternity".

                    I have to go look this one up again. I used to be able to recite it verbatim. It may be one of the best poems I have ever heard in my life.

                    So, are you a musician Amalie, or just this impressive knowing entity of art knowledge and art history?


                    ------------------
                    v russo

                    [This message has been edited by v russo (edited February 10, 2004).]
                    v russo

                    Comment


                      #25

                      I looked for the poem you spoke of but it was not in my book.
                      But here is...
                      Wanderers Nachtlied II
                      Uber allen
                      Ist Ruh
                      In allen Wipfeln
                      Spurest du
                      Kaum einen Hauch:
                      Die Vogelein schweigen in Walde.
                      Ruhest du auch.

                      Calm is over all the hilltops,in all the treetops you can hardly feel a breath.The little birds are hushed in the woods.wait,soon you will be calm too.

                      "Finis coronat opus "

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by v russo:
                        your point about being un-lable-like in reference to Goethe's work is great to hear. I feel, the most special and timeless art is often "un-label-able" in many ways...

                        My favorite Goethe poem is the one where he finds that moment of eternity just for an instant after searching for it earlier in the piece. It ends with the line "...the moment is eternity".

                        I have to go look this one up again. I used to be able to recite it verbatim. It may be one of the best poems I have ever heard in my life.

                        So, are you a musician Amalie, or just this impressive knowing entity of art knowledge and art history?

                        Thankyou v.russo,
                        Sadly I am not a musician but I have a feel and great appreciation for it. but I do like to read widely.
                        I would be interested in the poem you refer to if you can find it. Another Goethe poem that I like is called in English ( The God like ) where he says that, really mans object is to be noble, helpful and good, because that distinguishes him from everything else. Sound familiar?
                        He has this fantastic invocation to spiritual forces in the poem where he says,
                        "Hail to the unknown loftier beings",
                        In German it is Hohern Wesen, meaning the forces higher than man and possessed of every virute and goodness. It is all something I am sure Beethoven was of course very much sympathetic with.
                        There is a good book by John Crabbe, called Beethoven's Empire of the Mind, which has some unusual material which I have never previously read on Beethoven's spiritual beliefs and artistic and human Credo.




                        [This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 11, 2004).]
                        ~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Amalie:
                          There is a good book by John Crabbe, called Beethoven's Empire of the Mind, which has some unusual material which I have never previously read on Beethoven's spiritual beliefs and artistic and human Credo.


                          Yes I have the Crabbe book and was fortunate to obtain a signed copy (by chance) from my excellent local 2nd hand book shop - it is an interesting and concise read.

                          ------------------
                          'Man know thyself'
                          'Man know thyself'

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by urtextmeister:
                            Chaszz,

                            I question one of your statements in particular:
                            Do you really think there were as many operas, let's say, based on mythology in the romantic era as baroque and classical? With the exception of Wagner's Nordic thing, the vast majority of romantic operas explore the human condition, not Gods and Godesses...
                            This is true. I was really referring to the arts in the 19th C. in general, including painting, sculpture and poetry, as well as music. When it comes to the subject matter of 19th century opera, you are correct.


                            [This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited February 11, 2004).]
                            See my paintings and sculptures at Saatchiart.com. In the search box, choose Artist and enter Charles Zigmund.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Amalie:
                              Originally posted by v russo:
                              your point about being un-lable-like in reference to Goethe's work is great to hear. I feel, the most special and timeless art is often "un-label-able" in many ways...

                              My favorite Goethe poem is the one where he finds that moment of eternity just for an instant after searching for it earlier in the piece. It ends with the line "...the moment is eternity".

                              I have to go look this one up again. I used to be able to recite it verbatim. It may be one of the best poems I have ever heard in my life.

                              So, are you a musician Amalie, or just this impressive knowing entity of art knowledge and art history?

                              Thankyou v.russo,
                              Sadly I am not a musician but I have a feel and great appreciation for it. but I do like to read widely.
                              I would be interested in the poem you refer to if you can find it. Another Goethe poem that I like is called in English ( The God like ) where he says that, really mans object is to be noble, helpful and good, because that distinguishes him from everything else. Sound familiar?
                              He has this fantastic invocation to spiritual forces in the poem where he says,
                              "Hail to the unknown loftier beings",
                              In German it is Hohern Wesen, meaning the forces higher than man and possessed of every virute and goodness. It is all something I am sure Beethoven was of course very much sympathetic with.
                              There is a good book by John Crabbe, called Beethoven's Empire of the Mind, which has some unusual material which I have never previously read on Beethoven's spiritual beliefs and artistic and human Credo.

                              [This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 11, 2004).]
                              I do know these pieces. I love them as well. I will find the name of the piece and re-print it here for you.

                              Yes, as I alluded to earlier, Beethoven and Goethe's work share a spiritual kinship. The message, the form, the power and even the emotional effect are all similar.

                              ------------------
                              v russo

                              [This message has been edited by v russo (edited February 11, 2004).]
                              v russo

                              Comment


                                #30


                                V.
                                Thanks very much indeed, I shall look forwards to reading the poem you mentioned.

                                ~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~

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