Which is the greater: The composer or the music?

[melvyn]

I have often wondered, suppose Beethoven had only written 5 instead of 6 late string quartets. If I (or anybody else) came along and wrote the missing one tomorrow and published it, would anybody even notice it? I suspect probably not.

This raises the question of how much is the success of a piece of music down to who composed it, rather than the work itself?

Melvyn.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by melvyn:
I have often wondered, suppose Beethoven had only written 5 instead of 6 late string quartets. If I (or anybody else) came along and wrote the missing one tomorrow and published it, would anybody even notice it? I suspect probably not.

This raises the question of how much is the success of a piece of music down to who composed it, rather than the work itself?

Melvyn.

I think it would be noticed. Typical quotes from music critics would be:

"...the inexplicable lapse into mediocrity of the sixth late quartet..."

"...Homer nods..."

"Beethoven must have had a bad breakfast that day..."

"...sounds like it was written by a musical amateur..."

[Peter]

Originally posted by melvyn:
I have often wondered, suppose Beethoven had only written 5 instead of 6 late string quartets. If I (or anybody else) came along and wrote the missing one tomorrow and published it, would anybody even notice it? I suspect probably not.

This raises the question of how much is the success of a piece of music down to who composed it, rather than the work itself?

Melvyn.

Well the music should obviously speak for itself regardless of the composer - I don't suscribe to the view that every piece written by a great composer is necessarily great, they all had their off moments! You surely don't think that anyone was capable of writing Beethoven's late quartets?

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

What about the "Jena" symphony which was attributed to Beethoven for many years until it was finally found to be the work of the great Friedrich Witt. (Who?)
It wasn't a hoax - just a mistake - but it had many of the "experts" fooled for years.

Michael

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
What about the "Jena" symphony which was attributed to Beethoven for many years until it was finally found to be the work of the great Friedrich Witt. (Who?)
It wasn't a hoax - just a mistake - but it had many of the "experts" fooled for years.

Michael

I haven't heard the Jena Symphony but from what I gather it is rather a fine work Haydnesque in character. Yes it was once considered to be a possible early Beethoven work and there are other works that have been wrongly attributed to Beethoven such as the 2 sonatinas. The original question was referring to the last quartets which are the crowning achievement of classical quartet writing - I do not think that any other composer could produce a work on that level and pass it off as Beethoven!



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'Man know thyself'

[melvyn]

I think the point is being missed here somewhat. I'm not suggesting that there is anybody alive who could write Beethoven's late quartets today. The question was a hypothetical one to demonstrate a point. I chose the late quartets deliberately, as the greater the work, the more it serves to illustrate my point. I could have chosen any of his great works. Neither was I suggesting that the work be passed off as Beethoven's - quite the opposite.

What I was trying (and apparently failing) to ask is: If one of the late string quartets was written today by an unknown composer INSTEAD of being written by Beethoven 180 years ago, what would the reaction be? I suggested that the work would probably disappear without trace purely because the composer was unknown.

Hence my question: How much is the success of a piece of music down to who composed it, rather than the work itself?

Are the late quartets considered to be masterpieces simply because they were written by Beethoven? Would those same works be dismissed as rubbish if they had been written not by Beethoven, but by a previously unknown composer?

Melvyn.

[Stargazer78]

Originally posted by melvyn:
I think the point is being missed here somewhat. I'm not suggesting that there is anybody alive who could write Beethoven's late quartets today. The question was a hypothetical one to demonstrate a point. I chose the late quartets deliberately, as the greater the work, the more it serves to illustrate my point. I could have chosen any of his great works. Neither was I suggesting that the work be passed off as Beethoven's - quite the opposite.

What I was trying (and apparently failing) to ask is: If one of the late string quartets was written today by an unknown composer INSTEAD of being written by Beethoven 180 years ago, what would the reaction be? I suggested that the work would probably disappear without trace purely because the composer was unknown.

Hence my question: How much is the success of a piece of music down to who composed it, rather than the work itself?

Are the late quartets considered to be masterpieces simply because they were written by Beethoven? Would those same works be dismissed as rubbish if they had been written not by Beethoven, but by a previously unknown composer?

Melvyn.

Yes, but how did Beethoven became so well respected in the first place ?!?

It's an interesting point you are trying to make, and i agree more often then not it's the reputation of the composer and not the music itself that gets lauded.

However, great music speaks for itself, and i'm sure somebody would notice the quartet , sooner or later...



[This message has been edited by Stargazer78 (edited October 31, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Stargazer78 (edited November 01, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by melvyn:
I think the point is being missed here somewhat. I'm not suggesting that there is anybody alive who could write Beethoven's late quartets today. The question was a hypothetical one to demonstrate a point. I chose the late quartets deliberately, as the greater the work, the more it serves to illustrate my point. I could have chosen any of his great works. Neither was I suggesting that the work be passed off as Beethoven's - quite the opposite.

What I was trying (and apparently failing) to ask is: If one of the late string quartets was written today by an unknown composer INSTEAD of being written by Beethoven 180 years ago, what would the reaction be? I suggested that the work would probably disappear without trace purely because the composer was unknown.

Hence my question: How much is the success of a piece of music down to who composed it, rather than the work itself?

Are the late quartets considered to be masterpieces simply because they were written by Beethoven? Would those same works be dismissed as rubbish if they had been written not by Beethoven, but by a previously unknown composer?

Melvyn.

A lot of early Beethoven is still dismissed but much of it is fine music, so having a name doesn't always work! No one considers Beethoven's Op.18 greater than Op.131, or the 1st symphony greater than the 9th - this is an example within one composer of the quality of the music proving the case.
Even when the Jena symphony was considered to be by Beethoven, no one thought it a serious rival to the other 9.

I think you have a point to some extent with music that is of good quality and has disappeared from the repertoire, had a famous name been attached to it doubtless the works would have held their place.

In the impossible situation that the 9th was shown to have been written by an unknown composer I do not think it would disappear into oblivion, it would still stand as the greatest symphony ever. I really hold to the view that a piece has to stand or fall on its own merit regardless of the composer, which is why I can listen to Wagner an admire his genius without being prejudiced by his monstrous personality!

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'Man know thyself'