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Old 10-31-2016, 07:16 AM   #41
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And yet Shoenberg himself described Brahms as "a progressive" and dedicates one extended essay/chapter to that issue in his book I referred to elsewhere, "Music and Idea". In short, Shoenberg says it isn't merely a matter of form but Brahms's use of harmonies which, in many instances, went beyond those of Wagner. And Shoenberg provides many examples of this.

I myself am inclined to the view that working with 'progressive' harmonies within a classical framework actually liberated Brahms as a composer. In short, the opposite of what the poet Wordsworth once described as 'the tyranny of freedom'.

Cannot agree with you about Bruckner as I don't believe any of his symphonies resemble Beethovens or the 'direction' where 'Beethoven was heading'. What 'direction' was that, bearing in mind some musical people even regarded Beethoven as quite mad based upon his later compositions?!! (My husband is re-reading the Walker trilogy on Liszt and that has come up with reference to Beethoven as he was Liszt's hero.) It is entirely speculative on behalf of any composer, of course, to suggest where another creative artist is 'heading'. And imagine the ego and pretensions of any artist saying "I'm taking over where I think Van Gogh left off". (If that was a sculpture of a torso without a head I could understand it!!!!)

In fact, wasn't it Berlioz who believed he was moving music forward where Beethoven had left off? That belief of his falsely assumes that Beethoven's 9th Symphony represented an entirely new direction for the composer. There is a precedent; if you cast your mind back to the "Eroica" - people said the same thing about that symphony and yet he went on the write the magnificent 4th symphony in a classical form, readily understood by audiences. For a time it seemed as though things would never be the same again for Beethoven, but this wasn't the case at all.

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Old 10-31-2016, 10:51 AM   #42
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Well firstly things weren't the same again after the Eroica - Beethoven expanded the classical form. We could go round in circles as regards to the true heirs of Beethoven as this debate has been going for well over a century and it's no good relying on composers opinions of other composers - Tchaikovsky for instance considered Brahms a poor composer, well behind Rubinstein. (This I have never understood).

I think the influence of Beethoven's 9th on Bruckner is quite clear, but as to resembling Beethoven, well Brahms doesn't resemble Beethoven either and thank goodness as they are both unique composers with their own voice.
I'm aware of Schoenberg's evaluation of Brahms (especially in relation to rhythm) but I can't agree on the harmonic point - where in Brahms is there anything resembling the Tristan chord or Liszt's bagatelle in no key? The Walker Liszt trilogy is an excellent read.

Sir Simon Rattle has this to say in relation to Bruckner's 9th "Bruckner moved harmony forward to a stage Wagner did not dream of. Bruckner was exceedingly important to Berg. You see so much of the same harmonic world, how much they share in their music. There are certain harmonic imprints in Berg’s music which are so similar to Bruckner’s. Webern was also connected to Bruckner: he was a wonderful Bruckner conductor, to say the least. Quite different from Schoenberg, who was more attracted to Brahms."

This debate is really outside the remit of 'what are you listening to' and perhaps would be better in a separate thread?
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Old 11-01-2016, 06:55 AM   #43
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Bruckner symphony no 9/Rattle - with the completed 4th movt. Not quite sure what to make of it. Rattle claims there is more Bruckner in it than there is Mozart in his Requiem.
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Old 11-01-2016, 01:36 PM   #44
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Bruckner symphony no 9/Rattle - with the completed 4th movt. Not quite sure what to make of it. Rattle claims there is more Bruckner in it than there is Mozart in his Requiem.
Which reconstruction is this of the 4th movement? I think I have the Carragan's somewhere in my library.
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Old 11-01-2016, 02:21 PM   #45
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Which reconstruction is this of the 4th movement? I think I have the Carragan's somewhere in my library.
Samale/Phillips/Cohrs/Mazzuca

You can watch here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LJuesGvtSs
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Old 11-01-2016, 03:53 PM   #46
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Schubert Symphonies...

...Nikolaus Harnoncourt. In the middle of the "Great" C major symphony.
Great music!
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Old 11-02-2016, 01:31 PM   #47
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Samale/Phillips/Cohrs/Mazzuca

You can watch here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LJuesGvtSs
Thanks, I will have to check that out as I get the opportunity.
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Old 11-02-2016, 01:31 PM   #48
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...Nikolaus Harnoncourt. In the middle of the "Great" C major symphony.
Great music!
That is among my favorite Symphonies and a good stepping stone to Bruckner's Symphonies.
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Old 11-03-2016, 01:40 PM   #49
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This morning, as near as I can recall what the radio announcer said, I heard Pleyel's Symphonie Concertante in D Major. I tuned in in course of the piece, so I am not sure if it was the first movement, but it sounded very much like the Prometheus theme of Beethoven.
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Old 11-03-2016, 02:31 PM   #50
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This morning, as near as I can recall what the radio announcer said, I heard Pleyel's Symphonie Concertante in D Major. I tuned in in course of the piece, so I am not sure if it was the first movement, but it sounded very much like the Prometheus theme of Beethoven.
I don't mean to promote anything here, but I found something that is most helpful when listening to a piece of music that can very accurately help identifying it. There is an app that I have on my smartphone by the name of "Shazam", that can "listen" to a few seconds of music and identify it immediately. It also saves time, as I don't have to wait for the announcer to tell me what is playing.
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Old 11-04-2016, 07:31 AM   #51
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Well firstly things weren't the same again after the Eroica - Beethoven expanded the classical form. We could go round in circles as regards to the true heirs of Beethoven as this debate has been going for well over a century and it's no good relying on composers opinions of other composers - Tchaikovsky for instance considered Brahms a poor composer, well behind Rubinstein. (This I have never understood).

I think the influence of Beethoven's 9th on Bruckner is quite clear, but as to resembling Beethoven, well Brahms doesn't resemble Beethoven either and thank goodness as they are both unique composers with their own voice.
I'm aware of Schoenberg's evaluation of Brahms (especially in relation to rhythm) but I can't agree on the harmonic point - where in Brahms is there anything resembling the Tristan chord or Liszt's bagatelle in no key? The Walker Liszt trilogy is an excellent read.

Sir Simon Rattle has this to say in relation to Bruckner's 9th "Bruckner moved harmony forward to a stage Wagner did not dream of. Bruckner was exceedingly important to Berg. You see so much of the same harmonic world, how much they share in their music. There are certain harmonic imprints in Berg’s music which are so similar to Bruckner’s. Webern was also connected to Bruckner: he was a wonderful Bruckner conductor, to say the least. Quite different from Schoenberg, who was more attracted to Brahms."

This debate is really outside the remit of 'what are you listening to' and perhaps would be better in a separate thread?
I won't pursue this 'debate' any further except to say that, notwithstanding stretching form to its limits, Beethoven was a classical composer. And Brahms became that period's last musical caryatid.

Today I've been listening to Kleiber's incandescent "Tristan und Isolde" with the Staatskapelle Dresden from 1982 in the recording studio. It's wonderful to hear Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. Kleiber's reading is intense, febrile and remarkable. I especially adore the Prelude to Act 3, at 2h 37' 33". Those growling low bass lines in the strings, followed by a delicate move upwards through the overtones (harmonic series) fill me with love and admiration. It's addictive. There is real pleasure in pain.

I have Barenboim's version with the Berliners from 1994 and it just doesn't reach the heights of Kleiber (who was widely praised for his version). In his recent book "My Life With Wagner", Christian Thielemann talks about Carlos Kleiber and refers to him as a "musical erotomaniac".

Listen for yourselves!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF4zN-Okonc
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Old 11-04-2016, 01:33 PM   #52
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I don't mean to promote anything here, but I found something that is most helpful when listening to a piece of music that can very accurately help identifying it. There is an app that I have on my smartphone by the name of "Shazam", that can "listen" to a few seconds of music and identify it immediately. It also saves time, as I don't have to wait for the announcer to tell me what is playing.
Thanks for the heads up on that. I will have to look into that.
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Old 11-08-2016, 11:19 AM   #53
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Bruckner symphony no.9 / Gunter Wand
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Old 11-08-2016, 01:28 PM   #54
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Bruckner: Symphony No. 9, 4th Movement.

Thanks for the link, Peter! This is not a bad reconstruction!
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Old 11-11-2016, 05:12 AM   #55
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Just finished the opera Der Freischutz.
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Old 11-11-2016, 05:58 AM   #56
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Just finished the opera Der Freischutz.
When's the premiere?
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Old 11-11-2016, 04:54 PM   #57
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Bax - 'Spring fire symphony' - a fine work but the influence of Debussy is clear.

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Old 11-11-2016, 10:16 PM   #58
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When's the premiere?
Good one!
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Old 11-13-2016, 05:18 AM   #59
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Yesterday evening:

Berlin Philharmonic, Sir Simon Rattle, at Hill Auditorium on the campus of the University of Michigan.

Boulez Éclat
Mahler Symphony 7

Wonderful concert!
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Old 11-13-2016, 07:42 PM   #60
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Mozart: Flute & Harp Concerto, Wolfgang Schulz [Flute], Nicanor Zabaleta [Harp], Karl Böhm/Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra

Mozart: Clarinet Concerto, Harold Wright [Clarinet] Boston Symphony Orchestra / Seiji Ozawa
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Old 11-14-2016, 01:42 PM   #61
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Bruckner symphony no 9/Rattle - with the completed 4th movt. Not quite sure what to make of it. Rattle claims there is more Bruckner in it than there is Mozart in his Requiem.
I had to buy the disc, so I've listened to the first movement so far. I thought the tempo was a bit slower than what I've heard, but I thought it worked pretty good. I don't have a lot of time to listen to a large chunk of music at a time, but will get to it as I can.
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Old 11-15-2016, 11:51 AM   #62
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A fine concert recording (audio only) of Beethoven's 7th, London Philharmonic under Klaus Tennstedt, intense and driven:
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Old 11-15-2016, 09:20 PM   #63
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I'm listening to the Brahms G Minor Piano Quartet with the Artemis Quartet. Absolutely white hot music from the great, great master!! All hail Brahms.

This work is a brilliant companion piece to Jan Swafford's Brahms biography, which I thoroughly recommend. The writing is FABULOUS!!!
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Old 11-16-2016, 10:30 AM   #64
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Vaughan Williams Suite for Viola and orchestra - quite delightful and surprisingly rarely performed given the small repertoire of viola compositions.

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Old 11-16-2016, 10:48 PM   #65
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Mahler Symphony #2, Bernstein.
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Old 11-17-2016, 01:34 PM   #66
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2nd Movement of the Bruckner 9th.
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Old 11-18-2016, 10:54 AM   #67
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Liszt: Spanish Rhapsody, Lazar Berman. He plays the heck out of it!!!

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Old 11-18-2016, 06:46 PM   #68
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Palestrina Sicut Cervus - beautiful, no wonder Beethoven admired this composer and turned to him before writing the Missa Solemnis.

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Old 11-18-2016, 08:06 PM   #69
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Palestrina Sicut Cervus - beautiful, no wonder Beethoven admired this composer and turned to him before writing the Missa Solemnis.

Beautiful indeed. My schola cantorum is rehearsing this one now.
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Old 11-20-2016, 03:46 PM   #70
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Arthur Honegger: Symphony No. 3 "Symphonie Liturgique" - the ending, (particularly the last 5 minutes) is stunningly beautiful.
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Old 11-21-2016, 11:00 AM   #71
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John Field's Nocturnes.
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Old 11-21-2016, 01:32 PM   #72
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Bruckner: Symphony No. 9, Movements 3 and 4.
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:10 PM   #73
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Mozart Symphony # 36 in C Major "Linz" and Symphony # 40 in G minor.
Bernstein/NYP
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Old 11-22-2016, 09:42 PM   #74
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Schubert String Quintet/Marlboro Players. Wonderful!
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:09 PM   #75
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Palestrina Sicut Cervus - beautiful, no wonder Beethoven admired this composer and turned to him before writing the Missa Solemnis.

This is glorious music; transcendent, ethereal and tender but with a fragile power. I use this composer as a 'cross and garlic' to subdue any 'heretic' comes along to denounce the Catholic church! Not perfect, absolutely, but what's not to love about its music!!??
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Old 11-23-2016, 01:43 AM   #76
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Just listened to Marriner's Messiah. Now listening to Boris Godunov, 1869 version, Gergiev.
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Old 11-25-2016, 06:44 AM   #77
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The late, great baritone Hermann Prey - singing, in particular, this beautiful song "Widmung" from Schumann's (early) song cycle "Myrthen". Prey had a magnificent voice and he died as far back as 1998 - much too soon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF-YV-hGLGM
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Old 11-25-2016, 02:40 PM   #78
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The highly accomplished and rather Brahmsian piano quintet in E minor by the remarkable blind organist/composer Josef Labor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Labor
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Old 11-25-2016, 05:59 PM   #79
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Tchaikovsky: Concerto No. 1 / Van Cliburn; Kiril Kondrashin . A classic recording that I grew up with. (I really haven't grown up; but that's another story...)
Mozart: Clarinet Concerto / Robert Marcellus, George Szell, Cleveland Orchestra
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Old 11-28-2016, 12:05 PM   #80
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Beethoven Waldstein 1st mvt (8years old)
Momoka Chiba



https://youtu.be/uTl_7ovLHJI?list=RDuTl_7ovLHJI
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