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Old 09-19-2008, 03:41 AM   #1
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Mental Imagery on Listening to Beethoven's Music

This may have been discussed before, but it is widely assumed that people think of certain colours to certain chords of music and that phrases, sections or pieces of music inspire images, sequences or scenes in the listeners mind.

Now explicity obvious pieces of Beethoven inspire certain imagery. The Pastoral, Creatures of Prometheus, Spring sonata. But what about the others. For example, when I hear the 2nd movement of the 7th Symphony I imagine, and for reasons I dont quite yet understand, a battle scene in WWI.

Perhaps people could discuss here what they imagine or see when listening to Beethoven, or if they imagine anything at all.
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Old 09-19-2008, 05:41 AM   #2
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I see the scores. Perhaps because I've spent a lot of time following along in the scores while listening. But even as a child, I remember imagining notes on a page when listening to music.
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Old 09-19-2008, 09:08 AM   #3
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Various musical imagery in Beethoven's music:
1. the axe blow in Egmont.
2. Leonore's shivering in the dungeon scene of Fidelio.
3. the rolling boulder in the dungeon scene of Fidelio.
4. the door knocking in the opening scene of Fidelio.
5. the bird calls in the 6th symphony.
6. Wellington's victory.
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Old 09-19-2008, 12:32 PM   #4
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Well I hope people do imagine something and are not so clinical as Toscanini who said that to some the Eroica was about Napoleon but to him it was Symphony in Eb!
There are many different example, some obvious such as when Les Adieux I always picture this carriage taking the Archduke away from Vienna and of course the opposite scene on his return. With the 5th symphony I always see a brilliantly sunny day that is so joyful - more so to me than the finale of the 9th which is a more spiritual rather than earthly joy.
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Old 09-19-2008, 03:53 PM   #5
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Leaving aside the more obvious "programmatic" pieces alluded to by Prometheus, the mental imagery I am currently prone to is :

The 'cello sonatas : poor maligned basso continuo players rising up in revolt and beheading everyone in their path, such is the glee they feel at being emancipated from the yoke of tyranny;

Symphony n° 1 : Dysfunctional osmosis in the wild grasses of upper Patagonia;

Symphony n° 9 : male rage bordering on murderous frenzy, with a soupçon of rape. Oops, not me, that was Susan McClary;

Piano sonata Op. 106 : a roasted pheasant with game chips, dark sauce and served with a Chateau-Neuf de Pape, or a Médoc;

The late quartets : deaf old composer, thinking to himself : "Ach, just wait till Bartok sees these!"
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Old 09-19-2008, 05:06 PM   #6
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May I add another to my list:
7. The drunkard's belch at the beginning of the 4th movement of the Archduke trio.
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Old 09-19-2008, 06:44 PM   #7
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I should, in fairness to Prometheus, give a more serious response. Scriabin certainly equated colours with chords, and even more famously we have the colour-coding theories posited by the Schoenberg - Kandinsky duo.

I do wonder though, that if we had first heard the Sixth symphony without being told its title and intended 'programme' if we would automatically come up with 'pastoral' feelings; that if we had heard the Third symphony without being given the title 'Eroica' and the Bonaparte connection whether we would have heard anything 'heroic'. In this sense I could well find myself in agreement with Toscanini. These questions seem not to apply to Symphonies 1, 2, 4 and 8 : you hear them without any received opinion as to the imagery you should entertain; though this is not to say they do not create purely subjective responses/imagery in each listener.

As to the second movement of the Seventh reminding you of some WW1 battle : this is curious, but I feel there may be some sort of cinematic cliché at work here, Prometheus. I vaguely recall seeing some battle scene portrayed at the cinema where all the action and noises (soldiers surging across the battlefield, bombs, grenades, rifle fire, screams and cries and so on) being played out silently, but with a sound track employing some slow classical (or baroque) music (and I’m not referring to the Vietnam war film ‘Apocalypse Now’).

Also, these mental images that Beethoven’s music supposedly engenders in our minds : these are, naturally, culturally conditioned responses; how do people from other non-Western musical cultures perceive it?
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Old 09-19-2008, 06:48 PM   #8
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May I add another to my list:
7. The drunkard's belch at the beginning of the 4th movement of the Archduke trio.
You seem, Hofrat, to entertain decidedly visceral mental images when listening to Beethoven.
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Old 09-19-2008, 08:11 PM   #9
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I see the scores. Perhaps because I've spent a lot of time following along in the scores while listening. But even as a child, I remember imagining notes on a page when listening to music.
Do you mean that you "see" the scores in a more general "photographic-memory" sense, or do you mean that as you listen, let us say, to the 1st movement of the Ninth that you really see/hear every instrument's notated part? Or do you mean that as a violinist you tend to follow the (1st / 2nd) violin parts as you may well have played yourself? This would certainly be my case with B's cello sonatas.

Speaking for myself, when I listen to an orchestral score I know well, I too fall all-too-easily into visualising the written notes, but I tend to ignore ("not visualize") the transposing parts, simply because that throws me off track. It's the same when I read through a score, I tend to focus on the string and (non-transposing) wind section, as I don't transpose easily in my inner ear, I'm afraid.

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Old 09-20-2008, 01:20 AM   #10
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you might be right there Phillip about works having preconditioned scenes. Pastoral, Eroica etc. but what about those that don't. Chris pointed out that he imagines notes, and im presuming he means with all of B, or Baroque and Classical, music. It seems to me that without a certain precondition people assosciate the music they listen to with something more specifically indivdual to them.

What made someone suddenly think "Moonlight", or "Emperor"?

Philip, I do remember a scene from Path of Glory, but there is no music on that scene just synch-sound.
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:27 AM   #11
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Peter do you mean the Allegro or the Adante. I can hardly imagine the Allegro con brio engendering bright joyous sunshine. If it does, however, that would be very interesting indeed.
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:51 AM   #12
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May I add another to my list:
7. The drunkard's belch at the beginning of the 4th movement of the Archduke trio.
And what do you suppose one might imagine at the "hook" motif of the finale of the Second Symphony? Some have suggested a "belch" while others have hinted at elsewhere....
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:53 AM   #13
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When I was working on the E Major Sonata (I don't recall what number or what opus) I envisioned in the 1st movement the footfall of many soldiers in marching.
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:46 AM   #14
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Do you mean that you "see" the scores in a more general "photographic-memory" sense, or do you mean that as you listen, let us say, to the 1st movement of the Ninth that you really see/hear every instrument's notated part? Or do you mean that as a violinist you tend to follow the (1st / 2nd) violin parts as you may well have played yourself? This would certainly be my case with B's cello sonatas.
It depends. If it's a score I have looked at often, I see it exactly as it is on the page, including its location on the physical page. In other words, I think of this part being at the top of the page, that part at the bottom. If it's something for which I have never seen the score, I mentally transcribe it as I go, imagining how it would look on the page. I wouldn't actually be able to write it down exactly and correctly - it's just imagination. I find printed music very beautiful in itself. Engraving is an art all its own, I guess!

I actually have mental pictures more when I am playing than listening, which is odd, because more of my concentration should be required. Often when I am practicing a passage, my mind is wandering, I am daydreaming, remembering things from a long time ago, etc. Then whenever I go to play the pieces, those passages always remind me of what I was thinking about while learning them. For example, the Bagatelle Op. 119, No. 3 reminds me of surface integrals, since I was thinking about my Calculus III homework while I was first playing that piece when I was in college. The second movement of the Sonata Op. 49, No. 1 makes me think of the woods near my house when I was young, because I just happened to be thinking about that when I was leaning it. The exposition of the 3rd movement of the "Les Adieux" sonata makes me think of a certain episode of Star Trek that was on in the background when I was learning it. That's a weird one!
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:07 AM   #15
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Peter do you mean the Allegro or the Adante. I can hardly imagine the Allegro con brio engendering bright joyous sunshine. If it does, however, that would be very interesting indeed.
No, sorry I should have said the finale of the 5th! This is an interesting topic and I recall a friend of mine lamenting the boring uninspiring names of Classical works - sonata, symphony, concerto. Of course names were generally appended by publishers to help sales of more popular works but it wasn't really until the Romantics and later Debussy that we get proper descriptive imagery. The Pastoral symphony of Beethoven has been mentioned but it seems obvious to me even without the title - maybe we are not as in touch with nature these days, but surely you'd have to be pretty dead not to pick up on the Nightingale, Quail and Cuckoo in the slow movement?
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
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you might be right there Phillip about works having preconditioned scenes. Pastoral, Eroica etc. but what about those that don't. Chris pointed out that he imagines notes, and im presuming he means with all of B, or Baroque and Classical, music. It seems to me that without a certain precondition people assosciate the music they listen to with something more specifically indivdual to them.

What made someone suddenly think "Moonlight", or "Emperor"?

Philip, I do remember a scene from Path of Glory, but there is no music on that scene just synch-sound.
Well, we have the music critic Ludwig Rellstab to blame for the nickname "Moonlight" because in 1831 he wrote that the C#-minor sonata reminds him of the moonlight on a lake. That was 4 years after Beethoven's death and 30 years after Beethoven composed the sonata. During Beethoven's lifetime, it was just the C#-minor sonata.
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:43 PM   #17
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I have another one:
8. The Flea Song.

That is a great example of imagery. The piano depicts the flea as it hops around, and in the end of the piece, Beethoven instructs the pianist to thump adjacent piano keys with his thumb as if he was trying to squash the flea.

It simply shows that Beethoven could create imagery when he wanted to. But most of the time he wrote "absolute music." Maybe we are doing Beethoven a disservice by trying to read imagery into everything he wrote instead of just sitting back and listening to his artistry and genius.
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:19 PM   #18
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When I listen to the third movement of the Ninth Symphony, I see a swan, out on the river.
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:12 PM   #19
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When I listen to the third movement of the Ninth Symphony, I see a swan, out on the river.
Keep taking the pills, Suzie-baby !! (Add icon thingie, you know, the smiley one). Which river, by the way? Don't say the Danube, please.
I think I will have to assign you a role in the next Act of my epic play - see "Comedy Corner" elsewhere on this forum.

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Old 09-20-2008, 11:40 PM   #20
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Symphony n° 9 : male rage bordering on murderous frenzy, with a soupçon of rape. Oops, not me, that was Susan McClary;
You may well be right about this.
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:41 PM   #21
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Piano sonata Op. 106 : a roasted pheasant with game chips, dark sauce and served with a Chateau-Neuf de Pape, or a Médoc;
You may well be wrong about this.
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:42 PM   #22
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Well, we have the music critic Ludwig Rellstab to blame for the nickname "Moonlight" because in 1831 he wrote that the C#-minor sonata reminds him of the moonlight on a lake. That was 4 years after Beethoven's death and 30 years after Beethoven composed the sonata. During Beethoven's lifetime, it was just the C#-minor sonata.
It was Lake Lucerne and of course referred only to the first movement!
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:43 PM   #23
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You may well be right about this.
Could you elaborate, PDG?
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:44 PM   #24
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And what do you suppose one might imagine at the "hook" motif of the finale of the Second Symphony? Some have suggested a "belch" while others have hinted at elsewhere....
And yet it still makes such perfect musical sense.
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:44 PM   #25
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You may well be wrong about this.
Alright, what about roast goose?
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:45 PM   #26
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When I was working on the E Major Sonata (I don't recall what number or what opus) I envisioned in the 1st movement the footfall of many soldiers in marching.
Opus 14, number 1?
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:46 PM   #27
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Alright, what about roast goose?
Nope, still wrong...
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:48 PM   #28
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And yet it still makes such perfect musical sense.
Quite. Which is why this thread - whilst fun - can only end in a list of each forum member's personal subjective responses to the music. What is perhaps more interesting is the "shared" imagery, which, as I mentioned above, is conditioned by the long history of reception.
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:52 PM   #29
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Could you elaborate, PDG?
Well, naturally, just having had an argument with my girlfriend, Clare (she's very lovely, but.....), I said that she should read Philip's post about Beethoven's subconscious agenda behind the Ninth Symphony, and she was not impressed! Harumph!
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:53 PM   #30
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Nope, still wrong...
Well then PDG, you must tell us what (perverted!) mental imagery B's music conjures up for you. Oh, go on, do tell !
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:58 PM   #31
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Well, naturally, just having had an argument with my girlfriend, Clare (she's very lovely, but.....), I said that she should read Philip's post about Beethoven's subconscious agenda behind the Ninth Symphony, and she was not impressed! Harumph!
Please ask Clare to join this forum immediately so that we may communicate with her directly. Perhaps it would be more appropriate if we met up on the "Comedy Corner".

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Old 09-20-2008, 11:58 PM   #32
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Well then PDG, you must tell us what (perverted!) mental imagery B's music conjures up for you. Oh, go on, do tell !
Actually, Phil, I regard the matter as highly personal. It's even more the case with Schubert, and you don't need to respond to this particular statement. Really, you don't....No.....Really....
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:02 AM   #33
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Please ask Clare to join this forum immediately so that we may communicate with her directly.
She nearly did about seven long years ago, but the apparent intellectual debating which was going on was considered by her to be too daunting. HOWEVER, these days, maybe she should reconsider her position!
Actually, this gives me a reason to phone her......just let me crack open one more beer....
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:11 AM   #34
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or another way of putting it, what is it in music, but in particular classical, that should conjour such scenes at all? Why? Is it a function of all art?
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:12 AM   #35
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Actually, Phil, I regard the matter as highly personal. It's even more the case with Schubert, and you don't need to respond to this particular statement. Really, you don't....No.....Really....
You've started, so I will finish : are you suggesting that Schubert's music contains explicit homo-erotic imagery that [continues in a similar vein for several hours...] ...
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:18 AM   #36
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You've started, so I will finish : are you suggesting that Schubert's music contains explicit homo-erotic imagery that [continues in a similar vein for several hours...] ...
Not at all. Some of Schubert's music is macho beyond belief. He was shy but he loved the ladies, bless him...
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:28 AM   #37
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or another way of putting it, what is it in music, but in particular classical, that should conjour such scenes at all? Why? Is it a function of all art?
Hello Prometheus! Oh good, a threesome tonight then it seems (stop sniggering, PDG). Let us continue : I don't quite understand the question "all art", Prometheus. In the plastic arts, explicit imagery is a given, surely? But I think you mean to limit the issue to music, unless I am mistaken.

Why does music conjure "mental imagery"? I think that so-called 'absolute music' (music without supporting text, as opposed to programmatic music) does not set out to do so, but is an inevitable reaction on the part of the listener. I personally believe that the imagery we have is conditioned by our culture, by the history of music reception. Why is it that I am prone to 'mental imagery' for classical music, but less so (if at all) for Baroque, Renaissance, and even earlier periods of music? Why does so-called 'modern classical music' (à la Boulez, Cage et al) not engender (for me) similar imagery (though it can do so, on occasion)? And is not the imagery of which you speak intimately bound up with "emotion"?
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:34 AM   #38
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Not at all. Some of Schubert's music is macho beyond belief. He was shy but he loved the ladies, bless him...
Interesting. Did he love the ladies? I don't know for sure. "Machismo" in music? Sounds like a potential gender-based PhD thesis to me. I have heard people talk about this-or-that music being "virile". Virility in music? Another excellent topic for debate (I'm serious). It reminds me of another debate concerning literature : can one tell if a "text" is written by a woman or a man? Can one tell if music is written by a woman or a man? Or indeed if one can really hear if the pianist you are listennig to on CD is a man or a woman? And is it important?
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:42 AM   #39
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Can one tell if music is written by a woman or a man? Or indeed if one can really hear if the pianist you are listennig to on CD is a man or a woman? And is it important?
To the first question, yes, I believe I can; to the second, no, I don't always believe I can; and to the third, yes, it is!...
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:43 AM   #40
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poetry and literature too
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