Beethoven - Bacchus

[Megan]

I found this interesting site from Beethoven's Conversation Books.






"I am Bacchus [Jacob] incarnate..."
(Luis Van Beethoven).




http://www.testimonios-de-un-discipu...hus-Jacob.html


According to Nietzsche , the distinction is between Appollo and Dionysius, that is the contrast between order and restraint and reason on the one hand and unbridled passion and licence on the other.
Bacchus has got nothing to do with Apollo and has everything to do with Dionysius. I would say that Beethoven certainly struggled to express a new way of being through reshaping musical forms, so its no really accurate to say he was one or the other, he was really a fusion.
Haydn is certainly an Apollo like composer, Beethoven's problem is that he could never rid himself of a love for the Revolution, which of course is all about wild passions that inevitably end in one form of death or another.
The Classic book on this is E. Michael Jones' , Libido Dominandi.



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[Peter]

Interesting but I'm not sure Beethoven's 'problem' was that he could never rid himself of a love for the Revolution - he had a love for the ideals of humanity and freedom, not for tyranny and violence. Without that 'problem' there would have been no 'Fidelio' and the 9th symphony would have been very different!

[Megan]

I am sure that is all true Peter, and I think we should always give Beethoven the benefit of the doubt and he had the noble motives. I think he was sensible enough to understand just what happens when you try to convert a love for humanity onto the political level. The Lesson of history is that this almost inevitably leads to domination and the control of others, because who is going to enforce these ideals if people do not wish go along voluntarily. The French Revolution is an example of just what can go wrong and Beethoven was deeply scarred by it at a profound level. The Revolutionaries of our own time are working in a more quiet way to subvert western culture and values, but lets be under no illusions , it is still a Revolution.

[Peter]

The collapse of communism in eastern Europe in our own time though is an example of a relatively peaceful revolution that brought about necessary change.

[Megan]

I agree, but there is a problem here. The formal end of the cold war never really came about. I suspect because the defence establishments in the west wanted to maintain their spending. We now seem to have the situation in which the east , especially Russia, but also increasingly China , is become more Christian and the west is becoming more atheist and secular. It is as though the roles have been reversed following the end of the cold war. And of course we do have a global enemy.

[Peter]

I agree, but there is a problem here. The formal end of the cold war never really came about. I suspect because the defence establishments in the west wanted to maintain their spending. We now seem to have the situation in which the east , especially Russia, but also increasingly China , is become more Christian and the west is becoming more atheist and secular. It is as though the roles have been reversed following the end of the cold war. And of course we do have a global enemy.

Well I'd question the increasing Christianity of Russia and China, there may be more tolerance than in the past and people allowed to worship more freely, which is obviously a good thing, but the state is still very much in control. I agree entirely that the west has a vested interest in keeping it's arms industry flourishing, but there's always been this hypocrisy with us! I'm watching the excellent series 'Jewell in the crown' again and this exposes our double standards in the past perfectly. A good dose of Beethoven is needed now, so I'm off to practice Op.110 - Beethoven truly was a deeply spiritual man and listening to him is part of my daily prayer for peace in the world.