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Reading music versus chord based approach for the adult piano beginner.

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    Reading music versus chord based approach for the adult piano beginner.

    I would like to say firstly, that I'm a 46 year old beginner on piano, as some of you know already, ( not even grade 1, never took any exams) and that this discussion is not meant to start any arguments, but to start a discussion on different approaches to piano learning/playing.

    I would also like to state that I have discalculia and that makes sight reading difficult for me, though I keep on with it. I am not a fan of pop music, as you all probably know, which of course is generally easier to learn to play! I have some "easy beginner" sheet music of classical music, such as the theme of the 7th symphony, the Surprise symphony etc and I enjoy this far more than practising pop music ( which of course would be an easier job!).

    I do have pianoforall course and was a while back working on book one and learning chords via pop tunes like The Beatles- I found this fairly easy.

    My brother plays piano ( just been to his flat today to see his new Yamaha DP). He has been playing for years and did a music course at college about 20 years ago, which was the chords based approach- with no reading music. He cannot read music, but his playing far far surpasses mine. He started playing aged about 18. He can play by ear also, has written music and played in bands.

    He said to me today that given my age, that I would be far better starting with the chords based approach; that is learning all the chords, key signatures, scales etc, so that when I look at my piano's keyboard I don't see just a "sea of keys", but chords, scales etc and be able to sit down and, for example, choose a key like B major, and be able to improvise a tune on the piano in it ad hoc. This would also involve understanding all the modulations, relative keys, sevenths, inversions, harmonies etc. I hope I explain this allright- I'm still learning basic music theory- it's why I'm doing all those music courses on coursera! ( I can't afford a music teacher at the moment).


    He said that to set the task of wanting to be able to play classical pieces to any proficiency is setting myself an extremely hard task, and really one needs to have started this in childhood, as the level of skill involved takes years and years to learn. He was also talking about concert pianist level. ( I said even people who start as a child may not reach this level- that he is talking here of virtuosity! Which is not any adult beginner's goal- though how most of us would love to attain that!!) I said yes, this is mostly true, but that many adult beginners I have encountered, even aged in their 50s, have got up to grade 5 in about 3 years. I have seen many on pianoworld achieve this!

    However, I will say that I have noticed that adult piano players who start in adulthood, I mean, who seem to be able to just play ad hoc/improvise and learn faster, do seem to be those who go down the chords based/play by ear method, and can't sight read. Of course they can't play Beethoven sonatas to the high level required, but they may be able to noodle a simple variation of one. I know an elderly man who can do this on his harp. He started self teaching in his retirement. He can't read a note.

    I can myself, pick notes of pop tuners by ear, and some right hand notes of classical pieces, so I know I do have some ear ability. I have a few bars of the Largo from New World Symphony in my Alfred's piano book, and when I first played that I then went on to play a bit more ( that is not in the book) by ear.

    I was practising Greensleeves 2 weeks ago from another piano book I have and I started by looking at the sheet music, then I found I was continuing it by ear.

    My brother showed me a programme on his ipad which is a midi sequencer, which you have running and it shows the piano keys and you play along to it- you can choose either visuals, or notes. He said this would be very helpful to me. I could see that, as I have found in the past, I learn something faster by you tube demos ( where someone plays something broken down into sections, you see the keys and play what you see)- I learned to play some of Fur Elise that way!

    This is the sort of thing:

    http://www.piano-midi.de/debuss.htm

    I brought my music books to my brother's and he couldn't read the sheet music, but if they had the chords and key signatures, he could play the music far better than I!

    I was struggling with the below Haydn piece- and he ran it off far better than I!

    http://www.8notes.com/scores/436.asp

    Though, he did play it legato, and I told him it should be staccato!

    So- thoughts? Any adult beginners here who have tried both methods or anyone you know/taught? What worked better for you?
    Last edited by AeolianHarp; 01-31-2015, 10:11 PM.
    Ludwig van Beethoven
    Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
    Doch nicht vergessen sollten

    #2
    These aren't really comparable. If you want to play pop tunes and noodle around by ear, do that. If you want to play classical repertoire, you're going to have to learn by the numbers. Of course, understanding chords and scales should be part of the education of every classically trained pianist. Classical training may get you off to a slower start, but it will take you further if classical music is what you want to play. And there's no reason you can't add a little pop music and noodling around to a classical curriculum. That's what I did when I learned to play.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Chris View Post
      These aren't really comparable. If you want to play pop tunes and noodle around by ear, do that. If you want to play classical repertoire, you're going to have to learn by the numbers. Of course, understanding chords and scales should be part of the education of every classically trained pianist. Classical training may get you off to a slower start, but it will take you further if classical music is what you want to play. And there's no reason you can't add a little pop music and noodling around to a classical curriculum. That's what I did when I learned to play.
      I like noodling and do at times find myself noodling my own little tunes, but I'm not a fan of pop music, but have no objection to using Beatles' stuff in order to learn chords on pianoforall stuff.

      Yes, your second point is what made me choose pianoforall- it incorporates it all.
      Ludwig van Beethoven
      Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
      Doch nicht vergessen sollten

      Comment


        #4
        Interesting topic. One that I, having never been a pianist, can offer no real insight on. But I was a performing musician...of sorts. I'm almost a polar opposite of you, AH, in that I was a good traditional annotation reader, which came naturally to me, but couldn't play by ear to save my life. No talent for it whatsoever. Thankfully, the instrument I played is not normally associated with pop music and improvisation, though it can be used in those capacities and sometimes is.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Decrepit Poster View Post
          Interesting topic. One that I, having never been a pianist, can offer no real insight on. But I was a performing musician...of sorts. I'm almost a polar opposite of you, AH, in that I was a good traditional annotation reader, which came naturally to me, but couldn't play by ear to save my life. No talent for it whatsoever. Thankfully, the instrument I played is not normally associated with pop music and improvisation, though it can be used in those capacities and sometimes is.
          It does look like people either are naturally inclined to one or the other DP....though there are people who come along like Beethoven and Mozart who were excellent at it all! Genuises are like that.
          Ludwig van Beethoven
          Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
          Doch nicht vergessen sollten

          Comment


            #6
            Here's a very interesting discussion on what "playing by ear" actually means:

            https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...%20ear&f=false

            Beethoven gets a mention as well!
            Ludwig van Beethoven
            Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
            Doch nicht vergessen sollten

            Comment


              #7
              I don't think it should be either or, but both approaches! If you are serious about improving and mastering even basic pieces up to grade 5 you will need to go beyond doodling.

              To improve your reading of music start off with a grade 1 sight reading book such as the Dorothy Bradley/Tobin 'Sight-Reading Made Easy' which is an excellent series as it gives you guidelines on how to work at each exercise. Make sure you take time to work at each small exercise, don't be impatient to get to the end of the book - I recommend 5-10 minutes thinking through each exercise before you play it through. Aim for at least one exercise daily. Then I suggest you build on that by trying to play the scale (one octave will do) and a chord that the piece was in and try playing it in different positions, for example C major, C-E-G then E-G-C then G-C-E. Then take a bar out of your sight reading exercise, try singing it and tap out the rhythm and then improvise, have fun!

              Look out for 'the circle of 5ths' which will show you the key relationships - you can then slowly work your way through different keys (adding one sharp or flat at a time) noticing the patterns of intervals that were formed when you played C major.
              'Man know thyself'

              Comment


                #8
                I don't think it should be either or, but both approaches! If you are serious about improving and mastering even basic pieces up to grade 5 you will need to go beyond doodling.
                Yes, I think both, but firstly I want to be able to see chords instead of a sea of keys when I look at my piano! I haven't been feeling top notch today, so got up late and was watching an online classical music course lectures and surfing online. I might play a little later. I shall be working through pianoforall again soon. It does both!



                To improve your reading of music start off with a grade 1 sight reading book such as the Dorothy Bradley/Tobin 'Sight-Reading Made Easy' which is an excellent series as it gives you guidelines on how to work at each exercise. Make sure you take time to work at each small exercise, don't be impatient to get to the end of the book - I recommend 5-10 minutes thinking through each exercise before you play it through. Aim for at least one exercise daily. Then I suggest you build on that by trying to play the scale (one octave will do) and a chord that the piece was in and try playing it in different positions, for example C major, C-E-G then E-G-C then G-C-E. Then take a bar out of your sight reading exercise, try singing it and tap out the rhythm and then improvise, have fun!
                Thanks for the mention. I've got Alfred's book- though it is American and uses American music terminology. I like the way it's structured though as with the pieces is chords practise.You learn chords within the context of the piece and it has exercises. I'll look at the book you mentioned in the summer when I have finished this full time mandatory government work programme I'm on and have more time!



                Look out for 'the circle of 5ths' which will show you the key relationships - you can then slowly work your way through different keys (adding one sharp or flat at a time) noticing the patterns of intervals that were formed when you played C major.

                Yes, I have a few books and web links about the circle of 5ths!
                Ludwig van Beethoven
                Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
                Doch nicht vergessen sollten

                Comment


                  #9
                  Learning "by the numbers" will also give you a better advantage to understanding what the masters did. Doodling will not. Learn a little theory, as well, and it will open new horizons to what the music is all about. The key is the level of desire and you can do just about anything depending on that level.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I'm always reading about music/music theory and have done and am doing coursera music courses- they are good.
                    Ludwig van Beethoven
                    Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
                    Doch nicht vergessen sollten

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Noodling

                      You know there is something to be said about noodling..I was practising just before then something from an opera came into my head (I could hear it), I think from La Traviata. I had my eyes closed and then played it with my right hand.

                      And the funny thing is if I noodle with my eyes closed I go into a zone and make up tunes as well. If I don't even think about what I'm doing I tend to play more fluidly. I can noodle more fluidly than I can sight read!
                      Ludwig van Beethoven
                      Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
                      Doch nicht vergessen sollten

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by AeolianHarp View Post
                        You know there is something to be said about noodling..I was practising just before then something from an opera came into my head (I could hear it), I think from La Traviata. I had my eyes closed and then played it with my right hand.

                        And the funny thing is if I noodle with my eyes closed I go into a zone and make up tunes as well. If I don't even think about what I'm doing I tend to play more fluidly. I can noodle more fluidly than I can sight read!
                        That's good and perfectly natural, no one is trying to discourage your 'noodling'! I wish my pupils would 'noodle' more as well as practice of course - and remember Beethoven had his ears boxed by his father for 'noodling'!! If the weakness is sight reading then you have to do some daily to improve, just as you would with ordinary reading if that was the problem.
                        'Man know thyself'

                        Comment


                          #13
                          When attending church I used to practice sight reading the music in the hymn books.

                          I would also recommend the ABRSM Grade 1 Piano specimen sight reading exercises. Really very easy.
                          ‘Roses do not bloom hurriedly; for beauty, like any masterpiece, takes time to blossom.’

                          Comment


                            #14
                            That's good and perfectly natural, no one is trying to discourage your 'noodling'! I wish my pupils would 'noodle' more as well as practice of course - and remember Beethoven had his ears boxed by his father for 'noodling'!!
                            Poor Beethoven- I bet his "noodling" was 100 times better than his father could ever play!


                            If the weakness is sight reading then you have to do some daily to improve, just as you would with ordinary reading if that was the problem.
                            Well I try ( I don't always play daily, or nightly, as I am out 9am- roughly 6pm Mon- Fri). I did practise The Surprise last night as well and a bit of the theme of the 7th.
                            Ludwig van Beethoven
                            Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
                            Doch nicht vergessen sollten

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Megan View Post
                              I would also recommend the ABRSM Grade 1 Piano specimen sight reading exercises. Really very easy.
                              I have loads of little exercises in my adult beginners piano books.
                              Ludwig van Beethoven
                              Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
                              Doch nicht vergessen sollten

                              Comment

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