Of gods and language.

[Peter]

Dear Peter,

Apologies accepted. In reply to a further post on this issue: of course, it is the case that institutions (religious and others) consist of people and thus are flawed. What I object to is their pretention that they hold all the wisdom and threaten the wrath of god over people (enough to scare quite a lot of them), if they do not agree with their position, or worse, actually don't wait for the wrath of god, but actually do it themselves.

I hold the Catholic Church at least co-responsible for the millions of deaths of AIDS-sufferers, of the death of many women who have had, have and will abort in back-streets and unsanitary conditions and so on. As I hold some Ayatollahs responsible for what has led to the killings of many innocents, or Jewish and Islamicextremists responsible for the impossibility to get out of the vicious circle of violence in the Middle East and indeed beyond there (we had a cretin killing people in Brussels probably in this context). All in the name of a god.

Do not forget that one can pick and choose from the holy scriptures: turn the other cheek or an eye for an eye?

I am indeed unforgiving for institutions that have been responsible for so much damage in the world and then their representatives still come on TV and tell us how to behave. As if they have a proven record of being right more than me. People have been gobbling this rubbish up for far too long.

Albert

Clearly you are very angry Albert, but I don't think your post is fair in that it completely ignores the good that the Catholic church does, from science, the arts to caring for the sick and poor.

"Statistics from the Vatican in 2012 indicate that Catholic Church-related organizations provide approximately a quarter of all HIV treatment, care, and support throughout the world and run more than 5000 hospitals, 18000 dispensaries and 9000 orphanages, many involved in AIDS-related activities."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholi...nd_health_care

[AeolianHarp]

The apocathery monks provided medicine and hospitals for the poor until gold ol Henry viii shut them down.

[Albert Gans]

Folks, please read what I say and not just what you want to read in there. I have said nowhere that people in the Church have not done good work. I am talking about the institution as such and a lot of its edicts. If it were up to the Church, we would still believe the earth is flat. And yes, the Church still has an enormous influence on people, however much one may believe that people have a mind of their own. I never mentioned Africa or Asia anywhere in what I said, one needn't go any further than Ireland, or even think about how the Church, for years, has tried to cover up child abuse here in Europe and how scared people were to speak their mind.

I certainly am angry at religious institutions. I freely admit to that. I don't mind religion as such, the pontificating that these institutions do, however, is something I find at times hardly bareable. The 'we have the truth with us' and everyone else is wrong. Don't do this, because you'll go to hell. And that rule does not just apply to those who believe that truth, but also for guys like me, who don't. Fine by me if someone thinks euthanasia is wrong. But why should they determine how I am to lead my life? Did I ever vote for them? Did I ever even ask their opinion?

That is what I am pointing out. Nothing more, nothing less. The Church in these parts, the Islamic Ayatollahs elsewhere, none of them have been elected to tell us what to do. Still, and despite claims made in this thread, they have a massive influence on people's lives, both of their own faith and of another (or non-believers).

[AeolianHarp]

I understand you Albert. I am spiritual but an athiest in the sense I don't believe in God.

I have to listen to evangelists shouting hell fire and other nasty things in my city centre. They have shouted unpleasant things such as :

Women are unclean.

Jesus is haunting you now and he will be haunting you when you are dead.

Fornicators will go to hell!

At the last one I said to a passerby:

"How nice, we have Jesus and the utility companies haunting us! Hardly cheers one up on a cold day!"

They also have placards with the words whoredom on them in the street.

This is supposed to be the twenty first century not the 1600s..

[Chris]

If it were up to the Church, we would still believe the earth is flat.

This is patently ridiculous. Human beings knew the earth was not flat before the Catholic Church even existed.

[Peter]

Folks, please read what I say and not just what you want to read in there. I have said nowhere that people in the Church have not done good work. I am talking about the institution as such and a lot of its edicts. If it were up to the Church, we would still believe the earth is flat. And yes, the Church still has an enormous influence on people, however much one may believe that people have a mind of their own. I never mentioned Africa or Asia anywhere in what I said, one needn't go any further than Ireland, or even think about how the Church, for years, has tried to cover up child abuse here in Europe and how scared people were to speak their mind.

I certainly am angry at religious institutions. I freely admit to that. I don't mind religion as such, the pontificating that these institutions do, however, is something I find at times hardly bareable. The 'we have the truth with us' and everyone else is wrong. Don't do this, because you'll go to hell. And that rule does not just apply to those who believe that truth, but also for guys like me, who don't. Fine by me if someone thinks euthanasia is wrong. But why should they determine how I am to lead my life? Did I ever vote for them? Did I ever even ask their opinion?

That is what I am pointing out. Nothing more, nothing less. The Church in these parts, the Islamic Ayatollahs elsewhere, none of them have been elected to tell us what to do. Still, and despite claims made in this thread, they have a massive influence on people's lives, both of their own faith and of another (or non-believers).

I'm glad we have moved forward a little in that you do at least acknowledge the Catholic church has done good - also there are few Catholics who wouldn't agree with you in condemning the wrongs that were done in the past in the name of the Church - read the words of Pope John Paul II or Pope Francis on this.

Your post though again overlooks the enormous contribution to science and education made by Catholics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholi...ch_and_science.

OK you object to the moral teachings of the Catholic church, that is your own choice and no one is denying you that. You presumably do lead your life as you wish, so why so angry? You say we don't have to look further than Ireland - what do you mean? The violence has nothing to do with the Church which is opposed to all forms of violence, hatred and intolerance. The violence comes from people justifying themselves according to their own values. From an atheistic point of view there can be nothing wrong with this, because this is precisely what atheists claim we should do - live our lives according to our own values. Thus we arrive at the only logical conclusion as defined by Dostoevsky in the Brothers Karamazov and put into action by the Nazis and Communists “If God did not exist, everything is permitted”.

[Peter]

I understand you Albert. I am spiritual but an athiest in the sense I don't believe in God.

I have to listen to evangelists shouting hell fire and other nasty things in my city centre. They have shouted unpleasant things such as :

Women are unclean.

Jesus is haunting you now and he will be haunting you when you are dead.

Fornicators will go to hell!

At the last one I said to a passerby:

"How nice, we have Jesus and the utility companies haunting us! Hardly cheers one up on a cold day!"

They also have placards with the words whoredom on them in the street.

This is supposed to be the twenty first century not the 1600s..

There are always extremists in any walk of life.

[RobertH]

Albert's point seems to be that he is against the institution of the church though he accepts it has good people in it.
In the words of Macduff in Macbeth, ''for that relief, much thanks''.
The church is an institution for a pretty simple reason. The claim is that the church was handed the keys by the founder of Christianity. What keys?
Well basically, where people are going to spend their eternity. LIfe is short and eternity is long. Not to think so is naive. People have free will and are perfectly free to accept or reject this. Where's the problem?
A lot of atheists just seems to have this obsession with the church. They are clearly fascinated by the whole thing about religion and especially Christianity. For people that say they don't believe , they seem to spend an awful lot of time dwelling on the non existence of God. The Church on the other hand spends virtually no time in thinking about the non existence of God or atheism, but just gets on with its job.
How odd.

[Symphony7]

Beethoven was Catholic.

[Symphony7]

...If it were up to the Church, we would still believe the earth is flat....

The Church never said the earth was flat.

[Symphony7]

I hold the Catholic Church at least co-responsible for the millions of deaths of AIDS-sufferers, of the death of many women who have had, have and will abort in back-streets and unsanitary conditions and so on.

On the contrary, what is responsible for AIDS deaths and abortion deaths (it's not just grown women who risk death from abortion by the way, obviously!) is people not adhering to Church moral teaching.

[Symphony7]

"The Catholic Church is an institution I am bound to hold divine — but for unbelievers a proof of its divinity might be found in the fact that no merely human institution conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight."
- Hilaire Belloc

[Megan]

I believe Beethoven was a lapsed Catholic.
As we all know was profoundly influenced by the French Revolution. He had a lot of deep difficulties in trying to fathom the violence and blood shed that resulted from the Revolution and we all know how he came to loathe Napoleon.
I don't think Beethoven ever shook off his great sympathy for the Revolution and it accounts I think for his political naivity. He didn't understand that absolute power corrupts.
My own view is that he was very taken with Robes Pierres idea of the supreme being. But he didn't seem to understand these people were simply criminals who regarded religion as a racket like everything else. It may be that he came back to his religion on his deathbed.

[Albert Gans]

For those who have still not got the point: it is about power and influence. Rules about behaviour have been set by religious institutions for ages. Don't be gay, adultery is a sin, the sun circles the earth, etc.... The big differences between these institutions and non-religious ones is that the hand of god is behind it. The threat that one ends up with eternal damnation. I don't mind if the catholic church does not grant equal rights to women. What I do take very badly is that by instituting this for so long, women still have to fight for equal rights today. This is just one example.

As for a list of things why I get angry about the Catholic Church... how long a list do you want? Persecution of Jews for 1500 years in various shapes? Slavery condoned for centuries? The persecution of homosexuals, their stigmatisation, right up to today? The Inquisition? The helping of the escape of Nazis after World War II? The Index? The condemnation of Galileo, because he dared to question 'the truth'?

Yes, great works of art were made, I fully agree. But what was the cost? The wealth of the Church in those days is in stark contrast with the poverty of the people. In fact, it still is. I always feel strange when I visit such places.

Anyway, I've said my piece. If there is a hell, I hope to see the leaders of these institutions there. I'm pretty sure that if there is such a thing as a god, they will end up there with me. At least, if there is a just god.

[Peter]

No Albert it is you who have not got the point because you are misrepresenting the facts in accordance with the popular distortions of the press and you don't seem to recognise that you are displaying the very same intolerance that you accuse religion of! The difference between what I believe and what you believe is summed up in your last sentence - I would never wish to see anyone condemned to hell and the Catholic church is forgiving of even the most heinous crimes, provided that is that the person recognises they need forgiveness. Christ preached love and forgiveness. If the world lived by Christ's commandments we wouldn't have the mess that we do - it is as simple as that. Your anger seems solely directed at Religion as though it is responsible for human nature. We have seen the appalling consequences of societies that have banned religion, have no lessons been learnt?