Of gods and language.

[AeolianHarp]

Yes but I'm talking globally - it is too narrow to restrict this to the comfy west which has exploited the poorer countries (and still does) in order to enjoy all the benefits you refer to. Nor am I seeking to make a comparison with the past, but as there are now far more of us than say 100 years ago, so in terms of numbers are more people suffering. We are far too complacent and turn a blind eye to all this - I'm speaking generally not personally!

I understand you were talking globally, but I think we started off in this thread talking about Europe in the past and Europe now. I know full well about the exploitation of other countries by the West- attended enough Friends of the Earth meetings and read ethical magazines to know. There are many companies I refuse to buy from due to their dubious business practises. Buddhism also has the tenet of "right livelihood" which I take seriously, so there are also some companies I would never apply to work for.

True there are more of us in Europe- but far less of us are suffering in the way we were a few hundred years ago.

There are other countries that also have improved since their early history such as Japan. It is not just the West that has improved in a modern secular world. I am mainly referring to equal rights, opportunities, and scientific knowledge that has brought about pain free operations and reduction of diseases.

I accept that and didn't accuse you of it - I don't mind criticisms being made, they need to be and the Church has a lot to apologise for, but it at least acknowledges that. I think your remarks here have been fair and balanced.

That is the Buddhist way- to strive to be fair and balanced. Buddha didn't call it the Middle Way for nothing.
But everyone can err, and that is what being aware of mindfullness teaches.

Well I suppose it's only water - mind you don't waste it!

I leave it out in the garden- the rain will fill it up! (I got it originally to squirt at a cat that killed one of my little Tree Sparrow friends).

[Peter]

There are other countries that also have improved since their early history such as Japan. It is not just the West that has improved in a modern secular world. I am mainly referring to equal rights, opportunities, and scientific knowledge that has brought about pain free operations and reduction of diseases.

Yes but you keep referring to 'secular' with an implication that this is the reason these things have improved. Despite popular belief (largely down to the Galileo issue) the Catholic church is not anti-science and has itself made major contributions to education and science - amongst notable Catholic scientists were Louis Pasteur and Mendel.

[Chris]

...amongst notable Catholic scientists were Louis Pasteur and Mendel.

And of course Msgr. Georges Lemaître, the Belgian priest and physicist who first proposed the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe.

[Peter]

And of course Msgr. Georges Lemaître, the Belgian priest and physicist who first proposed the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe.

Yes of course, I think he comes as quite a surprise to a lot of atheists!

[AeolianHarp]

Yes but you keep referring to 'secular' with an implication that this is the reason these things have improved. Despite popular belief (largely down to the Galileo issue) the Catholic church is not anti-science and has itself made major contributions to education and science - amongst notable Catholic scientists were Louis Pasteur and Mendel.

In some cases they have been from secular sources, I mean not coming from a religious impetus. Louis Pasteur did so mich for health didn't he!

[AeolianHarp]

And of course Msgr. Georges Lemaître, the Belgian priest and physicist who first proposed the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe.

I have never heard of him, must do a google!

[Peter]

In some cases they have been from secular sources, I mean not coming from a religious impetus. Louis Pasteur did so mich for health didn't he!

Of course, there are many people with no faith who have made and are making enormous contributions - all I have been doing in my posts is countering the very negative attack that was made earlier in this thread on religion generally and the Catholic church specifically - not by yourself I hasten to add! I acknowledge the bad things done but some people look solely at that, are unforgiving and are unwilling to acknowledge the good of which there is far more than most people are aware of, for example http://www.cafod.org.uk/

I'll tell you an anecdote about Pasteur - a man was on a train praying the Rosary when a young student sitting opposite asked how he could believe in 'all that nonsense' as science had shown it all to be so. He invited the man to visit so he could explain it all to him - the man agreed and gave him his card which read 'Louis Pasteur director of the science institute Paris'.

[AeolianHarp]

Of course, there are many people with no faith who have made and are making enormous contributions - all I have been doing in my posts is countering the very negative attack that was made earlier in this thread on religion generally and the Catholic church specifically - not by yourself I hasten to add! I acknowledge the bad things done but some people look solely at that, are unforgiving and are unwilling to acknowledge the good of which there is far more than most people are aware of, for example http://www.cafod.org.uk/

Yes, I have heard about Cafod- there was a Cafod charity shop I used to buy from in the suburb I grew up in.

Peter, I think people are still angry about the abuse children endured in some convent and church run educational institutions. I've lived in Eire and the anger and pain of it is still raw. People find those sorts of things hard to forget about and forgive.We need a Western Thich Nhat Hanh!

But the fact is those who do good acts out of real altruism ( they are often very humble) don't tend to go round talking about it, so they often are unknown by the wider public.

[Peter]

Yes, I have heard about Cafod- there was a Cafod charity shop I used to buy from in the suburb I grew up in.

Peter, I think people are still angry about the abuse children endured in some convent and church run educational institutions. I've lived in Eire and the anger and pain of it is still raw. People find those sorts of things hard to forget about and forgive.We need a Western Thich Nhat Hanh!

Of course but it needs putting in perspective - the Catholic church has behaved badly on this issue in the past but the media attacks also have their own agenda. http://www.themediareport.com/fast-facts/

But the fact is those who do good acts out of real altruism ( they are often very humble) don't tend to go round talking about it, so they often are unknown by the wider public.

Yes this is very true - whenever I hear about the latest celebrity charity event, I cringe - whilst the money raised is obviously good, the motive is dubious.

[AeolianHarp]

Of course but it needs putting in perspective - the Catholic church has behaved badly on this issue in the past but the media attacks also have their own agenda. http://www.themediareport.com/fast-facts/

The mainstream media has agendas on all aspects of life.

Yes this is very true - whenever I hear about the latest celebrity charity event, I cringe - whilst the money raised is obviously good, the motive is dubious.

Yes, some of them parade around like they think they are saints, but still go back to their debauched luxury lifestyles!

I found this interesting documentary on you tube about young people who live vintage!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOC_vsKy9O4

I can relate to some of it. I have some vintage items in my home such as a 1930s gramophone, and a 1960s dial phone- I love its ring and dialling it!
As you might have seen from my photos my house doesn't look that modern!

[Enrique]

This is patently ridiculous. Human beings knew the earth was not flat before the Catholic Church even existed.

That's correct. To be more specific, since the Greeks. One of its astronomers even measured the Earth diameter with fairly good accuracy.

[AeolianHarp]

That's correct. To be more specific, since the Greeks. One of its astronomers even measured the Earth diameter with fairly good accuracy.

They were quite clever how they could do that back then without the technology we have now.

I read a bit of a Roman philosopher's book a few years ago- I think it was Lucretius, not sure, and he talked about atoms! How could he know that??? - that is way way before microscopes and telescopes...

[AeolianHarp]

Can there be morality without God? Some are saying yes, and some are saying no. I think the answer is both yes and no. If one accepts Aristotelian essentialism, then yes. Under that system, what is good for a thing, including a human being, is determined by its nature. And the nature of a human being is what it is, regardless of the question of God.

The morality taught by any institution rooted in classical theism (such as the Catholic Church) works this same way, in fact. So it is no good to argue that the morality taught by such an institution is rooted in something an atheist cannot accept because he does not accept the existence of God. Morality in classical theism does not come from arbitrary divine commands. It is rooted in the natural law, which comes from the nature of things, and, to a major extent, can be known without appealing to God at all.

That said, the popular kind of atheism today is not something that holds Aristotelian essentialism, but absolutely denies it in favor of an anti-teleological conception of the natural world. Under that system, there cannot really be any rational justification for objective morality. Because if there is no intrinsic teleology, all teleology must be mere as-if teleology. And that means that there can be no true goodness, but only as-if goodness. And that in turn means there can be no true morality; it can only be as if there is morality.

And this is why this kind of atheism leads to evil. Certainly any classical theist could do evil and justify it by making some kind of rationalization to himself, but he could never actually justify it under the system of morality he purports to hold. On the other hand, when all you have is a system with "as-if" morality, that is not true. People might come together and form a civil society because they can see it is advantageous to most of them. They can choose to act as if there is morality because most people benefit. If people do not murder, steal, etc., things work a lot better. But then when it becomes convenient to murder the weakest members of that society, or steal from them, those actions can be justified on the grounds that the society is better off that way. Here morality becomes nothing more than a convenient fiction that can be discarded when it becomes inconvenient.

And certainly even this kind of atheist can be capable of charity and compassion. But why? Because of something inside, as has been noted. Emotion or sentiment. But there is no rational justification for it.

So no, atheism does not, in itself, rule out true morality. But the modern kind of naturalistic atheism does.

Interesting points Chris- sorry I didn't see your post before. I think the kind of "atheism" you are talking about really is a kind of immoral hedonism. I don't know any atheists supporting that view- they are all quite quite moral and caring! Even the outspoken atheist Dawkins supports moral behaviour.

[Chris]

Interesting points Chris- sorry I didn't see your post before. I think the kind of "atheism" you are talking about really is a kind of immoral hedonism. I don't know any atheists supporting that view- they are all quite quite moral and caring! Even the outspoken atheist Dawkins supports moral behaviour.

Of course - we all like to think of ourselves as moral. The question is, what is the source of it? What justification do we have for saying this is moral and that is immoral? The New Atheists, of which Richard Dawkins is a perfect example, talk about morality just as much as anyone else. But since, as I said, they hold to an anti-teleological conception of the natural world, the most they can reasonably assert is that it is as if there is actual morality. Given that, it is hard to see how anyone holding such a viewpoint can make the argument that another's actions should be restricted or that someone should be punished for immoral acts. The intuition of morality is there, but there is no rational foundation for it.

[AeolianHarp]

Of course - we all like to think of ourselves as moral.

Decent people yes Chris. But sadly there are hedonistic, debauched people who lack some morals- many will live a life of self gratification and materialism but even then would stop at murder...then you get those who'd stop at nothing to get what they want.

The question is, what is the source of it? What justification do we have for saying this is moral and that is immoral?

Well it is logical- an immoral debauched society fails ...eventually. Co operation and community keeps community together. We cannot exist alone.

The New Atheists, of which Richard Dawkins is a perfect example, talk about morality just as much as anyone else.

He does, and makes sense what he says about morality. Atheism is not about living in an immoral fashion.Ever read anything about Percy Bysshe Shelley the Regency poet? He was an atheist and was all for social justice. This has been common with atheists and agnostics throughout history. Kant saw reason as natural.

But since, as I said, they hold to an anti-teleological conception of the natural world, the most they can reasonably assert is that it is as if there is actual morality. Given that, it is hard to see how anyone holding such a viewpoint can make the argument that another's actions should be restricted or that someone should be punished for immoral acts. The intuition of morality is there, but there is no rational foundation for it.

There certainly is I think. Ever read Kant's Formulations? Human beings are quite capable of knowing what is beneficial, compassionate behaviour and what is not. Belief in gods is not a pre requisite for morality. Buddhism is an athiest philosophy and teaches morals of a high order.