The top ten most overrated geniuses (not about music).

[Peter]

I have to disagree here. A counterexample: If we French are what we are, for good or for bad, we owe it to Caesar's sword. These are the words of a French historian.

Well that doesn't make Caesar a genius! He was a dictator who massacred millions of Gauls - it's quite amazing how the passage of time allows us to venerate people who would be vilified in our own time like Hitler.

[Enrique]

Well that doesn't make Caesar a genius! He was a dictator who massacred millions of Gauls - it's quite amazing how the passage of time allows us to venerate people who would be vilified in our own time like Hitler.

How you an idea of how many times the Romans were on the verge of being erased from the face of Earth and by those same Gauls? Else, I was implying the had build something. And a genius he certainly was, despite the hosts of historians who like to dispise Rome when they put their face in front of a camera.

[Enrique]

If all Caesar did was masacrate people, then the same can be say in general about Rome. But where is its legacy then?

[Peter]

How you an idea of how many times the Romans were on the verge of being erased from the face of Earth and by those same Gauls? Else, I was implying the had build something. And a genius he certainly was, despite the hosts of historians who like to dispise Rome when they put their face in front of a camera.

Well we'll have to disagree - I don't equate military prowess with the achievements of Mozart which is a force for good. Conquering people isn't genius, it's quite frankly evil as was demonstrated by the Soviet empire and the Nazis. Caesar had luck (until the Ides of March) - he was at the head of the most powerful and technologically advanced civilisation - always an advantage in warfare.

It's a bit like us in 19th century Britain using modern weapons against spears and arrows, thinking we were great heroes when we inevitably won a battle. History is written by the victors and before the Romans arrived in Britain and France, there was already a thriving Celtic culture - they weren't quite the barbarians Roman historians made them out to be. Without a doubt the greatest legacy of Rome was its technology and architecture (much taken from Greece), something that was lost for 1000 years until the Renaissance.

[Enrique]

I thought it was the body of Roman legislation which has served as a basis for law in the forthcoming nations of Europe. Plus, they're writers taught French, Englishmen, Germans, Italians how to properly write (literature). I'll give an example. Not long ago it was discovered that agriculture in Africa had been steadily advancing soutward during the past. Now, later it was also discovered that this matched the displacement southwards of legion XXI. Most of the basic things you and me are and discuss here in this forum have been determine by Roman times, whether we like it or not. The "genius" of Caesar, although a great solder, lies IMO rather in his vision of politics and his deeds as a statement. He certainly was a man of a superior intellect.

It's true. Augustus decided to support his figure, and the Julio-Claudian dinasty had many representatives. So, writers had, in a certain measure, to adulate things related to the old democratic (and anti-republican) party during quite a time. Most of all, Caesar, of course.

However, trimming this adulation off, enough is left so that Caesar's figure can be considered one of the greatest men of all age and not the rascal some mediocre and ignorant or God knows what "historians" want to make us believe.

Do you know he began making public the debates in the Senate? Although of very little diration because of this death, this can be considered the first newspaper. Do you know he took over 200 gauls to the Senate (I mean, he made them senaators)? People in Rome wrote grafitti saying "Forbidden to show the Senate road to the new senators". Or "The gauls take off their bragas and dress the laticlavius.

In a last analysis, we'll never know the truth, because in spite of the enormous body of writings left extant, they are very little by modern standards and because it was a time so chaotic as there have been few in the annals of history. Caesar an opportunist? Caesar a stateman? In any case the Ancients do had a virtue. They left for us an example. Did not show us things as they were, but as they wanted to be seen by later generations. And the big canvas they left us is one of the most beautiful an morally edifying things that has ever been drawn.

[Peter]

I thought it was the body of Roman legislation which has served as a basis for law in the forthcoming nations of Europe. Plus, they're writers taught French, Englishmen, Germans, Italians how to properly write (literature). I'll give an example. Not long ago it was discovered that agriculture in Africa had been steadily advancing soutward during the past. Now, later it was also discovered that this matched the displacement southwards of legion XXI. Most of the basic things you and me are and discuss here in this forum have been determine by Roman times, whether we like it or not. The "genius" of Caesar, although a great solder, lies IMO rather in his vision of politics and his deeds as a statement. He certainly was a man of a superior intellect.

It's true. Augustus decided to support his figure, and the Julio-Claudian dinasty had many representatives. So, writers had, in a certain measure, to adulate things related to the old democratic (and anti-republican) party during quite a time. Most of all, Caesar, of course.

However, trimming this adulation off, enough is left so that Caesar's figure can be considered one of the greatest men of all age and not the rascal some mediocre and ignorant or God knows what "historians" want to make us believe.

Do you know he began making public the debates in the Senate? Although of very little diration because of this death, this can be considered the first newspaper. Do you know he took over 200 gauls to the Senate (I mean, he made them senaators)? People in Rome wrote grafitti saying "Forbidden to show the Senate road to the new senators". Or "The gauls take off their bragas and dress the laticlavius.

In a last analysis, we'll never know the truth, because in spite of the enormous body of writings left extant, they are very little by modern standards and because it was a time so chaotic as there have been few in the annals of history. Caesar an opportunist? Caesar a stateman? In any case the Ancients do had a virtue. They left for us an example. Did not show us things as they were, but as they wanted to be seen by later generations. And the big canvas they left us is one of the most beautiful an morally edifying things that has ever been drawn.

I'm not seeking to denigrate Caesar or the Romans, simply to look at it without rose-tinted spectacles and within the context of this thread which is about genius and I don't consider Caesar to be that because I don't think he personally invented or created anything. Pythagoras, Euclid, Aristotle were men of genius but military victories are not, or are we to include Ghenghis Khan, Hitler or many other tyrants throughout history who were all great tacticians and had enormous successes? You credit Caesar with certain reforms, ok but he isn't alone in this - what about Joseph II of Austria, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln or William Wilberforce? Remarkable men of a noble mind, but does this constitute genius that you can equate with Leonardo Da Vinci, Michelangelo and Beethoven?