The top ten most overrated geniuses (not about music).

[Peter]

Not just over-rated, but 'vastly over-rated', you say. You have to look beyond the music and consider the influence. The Beatles have changed the thinking processes of more people in the 20th Century than even Beethoven has done these last 200 years. You joked recently that there wouldn't be 30,000 people lining the streets for Harrison Birtwhistle's funeral, but it is a certainty that there will be far more interest in the passing of Paul McCartney. Deserved or not.

On the verge of your 50th birthday, Peter, I suggest that this 'old' thinking tries to get along with the 'new', the whole thing in danger of becoming one big, blurred image...

It is a personal opinion as is yours about Shakespeare and Newton. I suggest you apply your own argument about influence to Shakespeare whose influence on the English language was profound. To me the Beatles are 'a load of tosh' and it has nothing to do with being nearly 50, I thought that at 20. Perhaps you can explain how the thinking processes of people have been changed by the Beatles? It's more likely to be down to the cannabis.

[RobertH]

Nobody's mentioned Isaac Newton?

But a 'thumbs down' from me for Shakespeare. Just a load of old tosh...

I cannot see how the influence of the wretched beatles has been anything other than corrosive on western society. They were the first public performers to espouse what they said were the benefits of drug taking. That has led directly to the cartel wars in Mexico that has killed tens of thousands of people, many of them with no connection whatsoever with the vile drug trade. That of course is not even counting the lives ruined through taking of LSD, which now spans the generations. The previous labour government were rumoured to be taking drugs at ther cabinet meetings, which certainly explains a lot.
Turning to Shakespeare. The influence is totally the other way.
His works are a vast treasure house of ancient and contemorary wisdom expressed in the most vivid and original language.
I read Shakespeare plays now that I was reading 50 years ago, and every time I get more from them in a way that I simply don't get with any other cultural figure and there are profound depths and mysteries in Shakespeare which I doubt we will ever fully or really comprehend, because in addition to being a master wordsmith, he is also a great magician who conceals the suorces of his own art. If I were to take one play, say Julius Caesar, it is simply extraordinary how in one line Shakespeare can indelibly set out each of the conspirators characters and there are about 8 of them, in a way that is unforgettable, and this in a comparatively short play. Passing over Hamlet, which frankly I have never fully understood, you have the comedies, the romances, and what is now receiving enormous critical attention , the history plays, and we are beginning to realize how profound they are in their study of power and war.

The message of the Beatles was, 'do it in the road', a suitably crude and demotic message.

The message of Shakespeare is, we stand on the edge of an abyss.


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[Preston]

Perhaps you can explain how the thinking processes of people have been changed by the Beatles? It's more likely to be down to the cannabis.

I am not speaking for The Beatles, but for the 1st hippie generation. What the beatniks and hippies brought to thinking was a far more open-minded way of thinking. In America everything was your typical norm, it was also very war-driven at the the time (which government seems to always be in some war), it was very Christian oriented, Uncle Sam and all that BS, etc. And the beatniks/hippies started to look into other religions, other ways of thinking, other ways of being, turning their backs to the BS of these so-called "schools" ("" The schools of today are a complete joke, imo. I am actually glad that I got a GED and didn't finish such a wasteful and completely negative place.), and made us think so much more than twice about government politics and war. They also had a strong emphasis on not just peace in the world but of peace within themselves.

The Uncle Sam, American, hog-wash is a sickening corrupt joke, imo. They pulled away from that and got into more spiritual and mystical things, a more mindful approach to life, etc.

I think cannabis is a very sacred and spiritual plant. As for Robert's post about LSD - I haven't done it in a while, and don't want to do it, but I think a lot of people like it - so what is wrong with that? With each generation there are going to be ups and downs, that is just the way it is. And, what about all the other problems in the world? They seem more important than people taking LSD. I stick to natural "drugs" so I will not take LSD, however I look forward to taking peyote.

And, I can't emphasize enough how weird "the norm" seems to me. It seems to me to be very unnatural, strange, psychotic, etc. Like a bunch of goody-two-shoes, who really want to stab each other to death.

Anyway, I believe the beatnik/hippie movement is one of the great movements in history, and even with its ups and downs a positive one at that.

[Preston]

And not to mention their deep love of nature, as in plants and trees. Which I imagine a lot of the "green movement" is because of them.

[Enrique]

On second thought, the page I linked to in post #1 is more of an enjoyable thing than any other thing. The blog writer presents feeble arguments for his claims. But those personalities are indeed overrated, in my opinion. A word about Einstein: it is true, he chose the geometry developed by Riemann for the model of the universe he postulated. That is, ours is a Riemannian universe. But the general theory of relativity is one of the cornerstones of present-day physics.

About Leonardo ... Yeah, the media, including the best sellers, do not seem to remember the Buonarroti or Rafael. But it wouldn't be the same in an art gallery. There is the book The da Vinci Code (or something so) and we also have Amadeus, the play. Large crowds have been incorporated into the realm of art by these two works (in the case of the former rather into the field of science fiction). I mean, they have made the notability of both Leonardo and Mozart to rise. Mozart's was being given a push already in the early 20th century by musicology and this, in turn, drove conductors over the same path (Bruno Walter?).

Now, in a certain forum (not this) whose name I won't pronounce, I've found lots of people who say the approached Mozart because of the play. This peak in popularity caused by it has to be an ephimmeral thing, in spite of snobs, and opera fans (on second thought snobbishness would make it ephimmeral). By the way, if there is a reason why I'm glad to have found BRS, it is that opera is hardly ever mentioned here, at least not 19th century opera. I believe that if Mozart wrote operas it was because he had to earn a living and an opera gave more than a quartet. True, also more work, but this is relative if one considers the easy writing of so many bulky passages in them. And however, Bach wrote so many arias, duos and trios for singers ... Mozart had to find joy in writing his, and the opera was a good place for doing it. But I stay on what I said about econnomical reasons.

My goodness, this post is a mess. But I'll leave it anyways, cause I'm tired of writing one and then delete it on reconsidering.

[Megan]

Nobody's mentioned Isaac Newton?

But a 'thumbs down' from me for Shakespeare. Just a load of old tosh...

So, Shakespeare is a load of tosh? well that's rich coming from someone who reads Korky the Cat comics!

[Michael]

So, Shakespeare is a load of tosh? well that's rich coming from someone who reads Korky the Cat comics!

Have to agree with you there, Megan. Although I'm with PDG on the Beatles I cannot forgive his dismissal of Shakespeare!
I hereby sentence him to listen to all seven CDs of the Beethoven Folksong arrangements!
Then again, what's wrong with Korky the cat - even though I did prefer the Beano to the Dandy?

[Megan]

Have to agree with you there, Megan. Although I'm with PDG on the Beatles I cannot forgive his dismissal of Shakespeare!

I hereby sentence him to listen to all seven CDs of the Beethoven Folksong arrangements!

Then again, what's wrong with Korky the cat - even though I did prefer the Beano to the Dandy?

Well, if Shakespeare is tosh, then what are the Beano and Dandy comics fit for?

I'm sure Peter will gladly fulfill the penenance you have given him, listening to all seven CD's of Beethoven Folksone arrangements!

Anyway, I think I'll stay under cover before PGD gets back!




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[PDG]

It is a personal opinion as is yours about Shakespeare and Newton. I suggest you apply your own argument about influence to Shakespeare whose influence on the English language was profound. To me the Beatles are 'a load of tosh' and it has nothing to do with being nearly 50, I thought that at 20. Perhaps you can explain how the thinking processes of people have been changed by the Beatles? It's more likely to be down to the cannabis.

I meant that Newton - especially because of his Principia - should be regarded as a great genius, whereas Shakespeare's language has become - for me - rather redundant. There still remain questions as to whether or not he actually existed! Anyone who says that they feel the same emotional experience after having seen a Shakespeare play as having attended a Beethoven concert, are - again, just my view - missing the point completely about Beethoven.

The point about the Beatles. And it's not just them - Gosh, thanks to this site, they might actually end up famous! - there are of course other terrific popular groups of the last 50 years. But the Beatles, unintentionally but inevitably helped by the tele-visual age, forged a path all of their own. Very talented with universal appeal, always trying new ideas (yes, later on sometimes helped by the influence of mind-expanding drugs, which I don't condone).

Just one simple example of changeing people's conceptions: Young men's hair was by common consent always swept backwards, thus: Apply for any worthwhile job with it any other way and you won't get it, you hippie! But because of the group's success, even as early as 1964, even your average bank manager was sporting a hair-swept-forwards Beatle haircut.

They loosened the world up a bit. Morally, too, no doubt, but overall, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. They are still the biggest-selling entertainment and cultural phenomena in history, and unlike your troubadours and minstrels, Peter, their name will 'liveth for ever more'.

The Beatles never rubbished classical music but actually embraced it into their own music.

[PDG]

The Beatles are a product of the music of Elvis Presley who, in turn is a product of jazz, the one original contribution of Americans to music.

Not correct. The Beatles legacy owes little or less to American music, even though they greatly admired Presley, Little Richard, Chuck Berry and Buddy Holly.

[PDG]

I cannot see how the influence of the wretched beatles has been anything other than corrosive on western society. They were the first public performers to espouse what they said were the benefits of drug taking. That has led directly to the cartel wars in Mexico that has killed tens of thousands of people, many of them with no connection whatsoever with the vile drug trade. That of course is not even counting the lives ruined through taking of LSD, which now spans the generations.

You forgot to mention Charles Manson, who took their songs Blackbird and Helter Skelter to be some sort of subliminal command to kill. Which of course he did...

[Chris]

Something to keep in mind when judging "The Beatles" - the credit for the music they produced must rest not just with the four of them, but also with producer George Martin.

[PDG]

So, Shakespeare is a load of tosh? well that's rich coming from someone who reads Korky the Cat comics!

When we were 'doing' Shakespeare at school, I admit I was usually skulking at the back reading my Beano or Dandy (and later on it would have been Playboy ). These publications seemed more relevant to me then. They still do...

Oh yes, and Megan, the elopement's off!!

[PDG]

Have to agree with you there, Megan. Although I'm with PDG on the Beatles I cannot forgive his dismissal of Shakespeare!
I hereby sentence him to listen to all seven CDs of the Beethoven Folksong arrangements!

Actually, Mike, a while ago, I copied all the folksong arrangements to one CD ROM, and have been walking around with it in my back pocket for many months now, wondering what to do with it.

Then it suddenly occurred to me that soon it will be BONFIRE NIGHT!!!

[PDG]

Well, if Shakespeare is tosh, then what are the Beano and Dandy comics fit for?

I'm sure Peter will gladly fulfill the penenance you have given him, listening to all seven CD's of Beethoven Folksone arrangements!

Anyway, I think I'll stay under cover before PGD gets back!




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Megan, just who is this PGD character? You are wise to hide from me!

If I can be serious for a moment here: during WWII, some front covers of the Beano and Dandy depicted Hitler as a figure of fun, thus providing light relief for the understandably frightened, common masses of Britain. So the comics did serve a worthwhile purpose at least during this time. I hope you'll agree...