One can't be good at everything

[Megan]

Albert Einstein was the man who formulated the theory of relativity, who revolutionised our grasp of matters space and time, and even tweaked the Brownian theory of motion. He was also a keen amateur violinist.
Once, below the window of his Mercer Street apartment in Princeton, his violin teacher was heard to say, ''Oh for goodness sake, Albert, can't you count?

[Quijote]

Yes, that's a great story. One often hears that there is supposed to be some sort of relationship between mathematical and musical competence. As far as I can recall, Pierre Boulez started out his academic career in mathematics (or engineering?) but was seduced into music. Wise decision, in my view.
Beethoven, on the other hand, was notorious for being an absolute idiot as far as arithmatic was concerned (e.g. he thought 11 quarters made 10 and a quarter, and I fully agree with him). So Beethoven, like Einstein, really couldn't count. Imagine! Nor could Beethoven dance, I read somewhere in the literature (something about no sense of rhythm).

[Peter]

Yes but isn't it infuriating when you hear about those incredible people who are good at everything!

[EternaLisa]

Beethoven, on the other hand, was notorious for being an absolute idiot as far as arithmatic was concerned (e.g. he thought 11 quarters made 10 and a quarter, and I fully agree with him). So Beethoven, like Einstein, really couldn't count. Imagine! Nor could Beethoven dance, I read somewhere in the literature (something about no sense of rhythm).

If Beethoven couldn't count, what is the explanation behind that infamous "fraction-ious" 9th Symphony all about?

The problem I am having with that claim is that someone else said he couldn't count when it came to music--he didn't say he couldn't-he just said that he was a bad businessman with math. (Maybe he was just a "brilliant idiot")

Maybe he couldn't "move to the groove" like the next person could, but I bet he had some steps others found themselves getting out of the way of

E

[Chris]

I seriously doubt Beethoven was bad at arithmetic. You can't be a composer if you're that bad at it, or else the notes in any measure with a non-trivial rhythm would fail to add up correctly.

[Quijote]

I seriously doubt Beethoven was bad at arithmetic. You can't be a composer if you're that bad at it, or else the notes in any measure with a non-trivial rhythm would fail to add up correctly.

Perhaps you're right : check out the extremely "irrational" rhythms in almost any score by Ferneyhough !!! I once had a brilliant (Italian, as it happens) student in my class who claimed to be able to detect a "regular" pulse in that fellow's music. Beats me, to be candid !!

[Quijote]

Yes but isn't it infuriating when you hear about those incredible people who are good at everything!

I know I can be infuriating, Peter, but then again so are you !! (Add big "smiley" icon, Hah!)

[EternaLisa]

I seriously doubt Beethoven was bad at arithmetic. You can't be a composer if you're that bad at it, or else the notes in any measure with a non-trivial rhythm would fail to add up correctly.

Having so stated, is there anyone here who would/might have cause to believe/speculate that Beethoven's compositions are not mathematically exact? If so, please give an example.


I have written before that just because Beethoven was bad at “the mechanics of figuring” doesn’t mean that he had a problem mentally comprehending measures of “time”.

“I am really an incompetent business man who is bad at arithmetic.”

If I comprehend this doesn't appear to me that he said he was an incompetent musician and lacked the capacity for calculating in his head–

“I do everything badly except compose.”

If scholars and historians have it correct, then the record stands that he was not known for his writing ability either-yet, he is reputed to have been “very text conscious” which as far as I am concerned, is a clear indication of a capacity to comprehend.

I have been told before that musical geniuses are also mathematical geniuses, music and math having mirror twin properties of one another.

[EternaLisa]

Having so stated, is there anyone here who would/might have cause to believe/speculate that Beethoven's compositions are not mathematically exact? If so, please give an example.


I have written before that just because Beethoven was bad at “the mechanics of figuring” doesn’t mean that he had a problem mentally comprehending measures of “time”.

“I am really an incompetent business man who is bad at arithmetic.”

If I comprehend this doesn't appear to me that he said he was an incompetent musician and lacked the capacity for calculating in his head–

“I do everything badly except compose.”

If scholars and historians have it correct, then the record stands that he was not known for his writing ability either-yet, he is reputed to have been “very text conscious” which as far as I am concerned, is a clear indication of a capacity to comprehend.

I have been told before that musical geniuses are also mathematical geniuses, music and math having mirror twin properties of one another.

**{{Please do take note that I did not write that Math itself is an exact science}}

[Quijote]

I have no idea if any of Beethoven's works are mathematically inexact (whatever that means). The point is that Einstein was probably a poor musician (counting time, keeping to the beat), and Beethoven poor at arithmetic (imagining that 11 quarters made 10 and a quarter).
No offense to you intended EternaLisa, but I often hear people talk about Schoenberg being "mathematical" and I nearly vomit at the sheer stupidity of the notion.

[EternaLisa]

* The point is that Einstein was probably a poor musician (counting time, keeping to the beat),

**and Beethoven poor at arithmetic (imagining that 11 quarters made 10 and a quarter).

*

Once, below the window of his Mercer Street apartment in Princeton, his violin teacher was heard to say, ''Oh for goodness sake, Albert, can't you count?

Granted, philip-but...where's 'the rest of the story'? It would be interesting to know what was Einsteins response besides this one:




Maybe its recorded somewhere in his memoirs (in so many words...)?
** how many times did it take to convince others that he was bad at it? Once? Or was this consistent?
Is it possible too that perhaps he was just stubborn and didn't care to learn the mechanics of arithmetic, or that he was indeed genuinely bad at arithmetic, as demonstrated?

just asking....

[Quijote]

Big "Einstein sticking his tongue out" to you too, EternaLisa, hah!
Nah, counting in musical time has nothing to do with arithmetical counting. An example : I can count from 1 to 10 quickly, slowly, or at whatever pace I choose; counting in a regular 4/4 (repeating) pattern against a set pulse (e.g. crotchet = 90 on the metronome) is a different concept altogether. Einstein's problem (as far as has been reported) was of the metronome type.

[Quijote]

Now, as far as musical counting is concerned, please Google "Brian Ferneyhough" and follow any links to extracts from his scores. Check out the given time signature (it may be an irrational one), take note of the metronome indication, and start tapping out the rhythm. Good luck to you, is all I will say...

[Quijote]

Beethoven, on the other hand, was notorious for being an absolute idiot as far as arithmatic was concerned [...]

Arithmetic.

[EternaLisa]

Arithmetic.

no matter how you calculate it, Philip, just add Beethoven, and you'll have it just about right

so arithmetic-derived from Greek terminology--meaning number.

At any rate, I think the myth-conception that "Beethoven couldn't count" whether or not he could figure on papur seemed to be 'evidence to the fact' arose as a result of 2 or more biographers putting their noggins together while engaged in a prove-a-theory session; hence, the conclusion that Beethoven couldn't pull an accurate number out of his head when put on the spot with a simple question. The concept must've taken on a life of its own after that; because it sounded sooooo logical.

har har