A Breath of fresh air

[Megan]

My consumption of meat is very limited to white meat, chicken, turkey and fish, free range where I can buy it.
I don't touch red meat.
On tv many years ago, and it was only shown once and never repeated was a programme on the Chicago meat market, which dealt with the slaughtering and preperation of animals from all over the mid west of America. I can honestly say it was one of the most repulsive and terrifying films that was ever shown. Tens of thousands of carcasses dripping blood and to think people were going to eat that. Yuk! I can certainly see the arguement for the over dependence on eating meat. When you see these fast food burger joints, it turns the stomach to think what people are eating , let alone the smell.
I wouldn't say it is as sin to eat meat, but keep them say in a yard and farm them in a non industrial way. You can hardly say to the starving people in the third world countries that it is a sin to eat meat, There is nothing wrong with having a smallholding and keep a few domestic animals, goats, chickens and treating them humanely.
My favourite read on self preservation is Robinson Crusoe, and I like the whole idea of how man on his own building up his resources, though I don't think it is the pattern for society generally because his is so much a loner, but it is a hugely satisfying novel to read.
It is interesting that the model for the novel , was Alexander Selkirk , whose statue you can see if you visit the Fife coast in Scotland to a place called Largo Bay, and he was rescued from the Island Juan Fernandez and made a lot of money retelling the story of his exploits, but became so homsick for his island that he decided to go back, but died on the return journey.

[Preston]

Sin, may be the wrong word. Though sin is also a very diverse word to my mind. Such as, there are the tiniest sins and then there are very serious sins. I usually refer to things that are not really pure in the least as some kind of sin. Eating meat is clearly not a pure thing, imo. Though as Megan mentioned it is often a necessity. I do hope to kind of and somehow spiritually cleanse myself from my craving for meat, though I have found it takes practice and great feeling, something I do not have, ! Either way, to my mind, we are all sinners (some more than others) and that is nothing to really be ashamed of (because we cannot help it), imo, unless the sin goes to far. It is when people go to far and are too unfair that serious problems occur, it seems to me.

[Preston]

Also, speaking of animals in cages and what not. I will tell you, it is a terrifying thing when I drive down the country highways and see the cows just standing there with nothing but a field. It is sad that they do not have woods and a pond to walk in. And the same applies for any animal.

Also, everytime (and I do mean everytime) I am driving down a rural highway I see more and more nature slaughtered for money. Eventually I think we are going to sell all of the trees. The oaks where I live take around 100 YEARS to wholly mature, and people now cut them down in seconds for money! Money, which all too easily comes and goes.

[Peter]

Also, speaking of animals in cages and what not. I will tell you, it is a terrifying thing when I drive down the country highways and see the cows just standing there with nothing but a field. It is sad that they do not have woods and a pond to walk in. And the same applies for any animal.

Also, everytime (and I do mean everytime) I am driving down a rural highway I see more and more nature slaughtered for money. Eventually I think we are going to sell all of the trees. The oaks where I live take around 100 YEARS to wholly mature, and people now cut them down in seconds for money! Money, which all too easily comes and goes.

You are lucky to see them in the fields - I gather there are huge mega farms in the US (coming to the UK as well) where the cattle stand chained up in their thousands confined to one spot for their entire lives (never seeing the outside world) for the sole purpose of milk production - it is simply disgusting.

[Chris]

I wouldn't worry about running out of trees in general, Preston. Even though trees take a long time to grow, they can be replanted like any other crop. A paper mill running a managed forest is probably better for the local ecology, as all the brush and dead stuff is cleared away so that forest fires are not so devastating.

[Euan Mackinnon]

My wife comes from a farming family. Through that family I have met and talked at length to many farmers especially her two brothers, dairy and arable farmers respectively.

From this standpoint I should like to comment on some of the things posted in this thread.

First, the general.

Overwhelmingly farmers are deeply concerned about the welfare of the land and the animals on it. Indeed I would go further and say that they are more concerned than many members of the general public who pontificate on the subject and who, again overwhelmingly, know next to nothing about it, often just regurgitating the media line.

There are two reasons why actual farmers are concerned over welfare.

The first is that farming is a business, a business like any other where questions of cost-control, improving efficiency, managing cashflow, etc etc are critical to survival. And a business, unlike most others, where one major factor – the weather - cannot be controlled yet makes a crucial difference to keeping a business viable.

The second is that concern for the welfare of livestock is a hard-nosed business decision even if you choose to assume that all farmers cynically exploit nature. The reason: well-cared animals prosper far better than neglected ones and therefore command higher prices be it for milk, meat, eggs, or any other such product. The output revenue/input cost ratio is proportionately far, far better, a goal of all businesses

However, without exception, all the farmers I have met and talked to, however big their farms, are also concerned about the environment. They genuinely see themselves as custodians of the land, as the latest in a long, long line of predecessors. They, in their turn, wish to hand the land over to their successors in better shape than they received it and this includes making provision for wildlife.

Of course there are exceptions. There are farmers who treat their animals appallingly and these people deserve all the opprobrium they receive when uncovered. But believe me, they would fail before long anyway: farming is a business and it has its own remorseless business logic like any other.

I repeat: welfare, custodianship of the land, and so on are critical business decisions.

Second, to the particular.

Megan 18th August, 2011
I wouldn't say it is as sin to eat meat, but keep them say in a yard and farm them in a non industrial way. […] There is nothing wrong with having a smallholding and keep a few domestic animals, goats, chickens and treating them humanely.

Nothing wrong at all, Megan. But it simply does not work if you are farming for a living in the developed world.

Preston 18th August, 2011
Also, speaking of animals in cages and what not. I will tell you, it is a terrifying thing when I drive down the country highways and see the cows just standing there with nothing but a field.

But that’s what cows do, Preston. They are ruminants and as such have to spend almost their entire time chewing grass or the like.

Peter 18th August, 2011
You are lucky to see them in the fields - I gather there are huge mega farms in the US (coming to the UK as well) where the cattle stand chained up in their thousands confined to one spot for their entire lives (never seeing the outside world) for the sole purpose of milk production - it is simply disgusting.

I’m guessing here, Peter, that you base this observation on a fairly recent TV item that took a local dairy farmer from Lincolnshire (as I recall it) where, at the time, a planning application had been lodged to set up a UK version of such a mega-farm. If so, I don’t recall that the cows were chained.

However, let me tell you what my wife’s brother experiences with his 250-strong herd of dairy cattle. He has large open sheds (the low walls allow all the air and light in) where each cow has an individual stall (they are free to wander anywhere within the shed but tend to use the same stall all the time).

In spring he opens the gates of the shed to allow the cows to move out to the adjacent fields to graze the new grass. And what happens? Almost all the cows choose – yes, choose – to remain in the shed; they are more comfortable there. Only the new cows dash out and frolic about in the manner so beloved of TV crews coming down (!) from London to the countryside for an hour or two to prepare some shots of bucolic paradise. Even these young cows return to the sheds after a while.

And that’s what the Lincolnshire farmer found much to the bitter disappointment of the accompanying TV crew. He saw that the thousands of cows on the multi-level sheds were contented and as a dairy farmer himself he knew what he was talking about.

Oh dear, all that money flying the town-dwelling crew and presenter out to the mid-west only to have the farmer, hitherto sceptical of mega-farms, change his view and tell the truth about what he actually saw thus ruining their story.

That’s where your cynicism and criticism should be directed first and foremost: the media, especially TV.

In the UK, at least, (and, from what I have seen in France, there also) the overwhelming majority of farmers care about livestock and the land. Their problem is that, as a class, they tend to shun publicising what they do which leaves the door wide open for town-dwelling media people to concoct stories that pander to town-dwelling people’s ignorant prejudices. If you want to find out what the reality is, go and spend some time talking to an actual farmer.

And finally:

If it makes you feel better, you can have all your livestock ‘in a yard and farm them in a non industrial way’; you can have all your pigs snuffling around fields and woodland uprooting this and that; you can have your chickens scratching around in the back yard of farms and laying eggs in neat little nesting boxes; and the rest.

But, if you do, the cost of such produce will rocket astronomically and you will have all sorts of consequent problems including food riots. Or else you will have to buy cheap food from abroad where there is far less control on how it’s produced (and, here, I’m talking about practices that would really make you worry) and which can be cut off at a moment’s notice (adverse weather in the supplying country, political unrest, etc etc).

I’m totally against factory farming (hens or pigs in tiny cages, for example); I’m all for treating the tiny number of bad farmers with the full force of the law. But most farmers in this country are decent people working very, very hard –livestock is a 24/7/365 business – with a genuine and deep-seated feeling for the land. Many even spend time maintaining footpaths, stiles, gates, directional signs and so on to allow the general public to wander the countryside some members of whom show their appreciation by leaving gates open (so that animals can get out on to roads), dropping litter including plastic bags (that animals can then ‘eat’), breaking bottles (that cut animals); starting fires (that someone has to put out), and so on.

Farmers aren’t the big problem; the ignorance and prejudice of the general public is.

Euan

[Preston]

You are lucky to see them in the fields - I gather there are huge mega farms in the US (coming to the UK as well) where the cattle stand chained up in their thousands confined to one spot for their entire lives (never seeing the outside world) for the sole purpose of milk production - it is simply disgusting.

I don't know, I would not really be surprised. Though I have never seen them except for chicken farms which bother me also. When I see cows, which is pretty often, it is usually pasture land - large, some very large, plots that have been cleared and used for pasture. The problem that I do have is that the 50 acre plots are often bare and the cows cannot find shade, have no woods to walk in, not all have good ponds (though many have small ones), etc. So the cows stand in the sun or maybe under one tree all day and that is it. I admit they are not the most "lively" creatures but, imo, that is a form of torture. Occasionally, I see cows with more of a wooded area and always think how good it is of the farmers who did that. ANIMALS NEED TO 'LIVE' TOO!

Euan is right about media in America, and probably a lot of other places. It is unbelievable, I mean this in all honesty! You are better off not turning on the tv, etc. I don't browse the internet nearly compared to what I used to. It is just too much media propaganda, etc. I recently sent my siblings warning them about this. It is absolutely overwhelming. What gets me the most is the government is now a huge internet sensation. Imo, that should be the last thing the government is.

As for the trees, imo, there is too much clear cutting for personal income, too much clearing, etc. They really need to outlaw this, but they really need to outlaw a lot of things. This is the thing I find intolerable, cutting down a 100 year old tree for a small fee and lots of them for a moderate fee. They have started clear cutting mountains!!! For the love of all that is green!

Now I am off to join Green Peace, . JK - I just found out they worked for the government, !

[Preston]

I know I may sound extremely pessimistic, it is just that I don't know what to make of this world anymore. I am trying to focus more on individuality (not just for myself but in general, such as an everyone is different type of thing, and we all have good in us (some much more than others, imo) and we all have bad in us, etc.)

I think that too many terrible things, Ex. prison, have become far too common and accepted thought. I read a legitimate writeup titled, "Either America is the worse country in the world, or we are doing something terribly wrong" - because the article was saying that 1 in 6 Americans have been put in prison. I think it is a combination of both. I like the idea of freedom to an extent, but America is not free like it claims. It is an environment of what I have come to call "paid-slavery" where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer - and if you step too far out of line, you get locked up in a prison or a mental home.

I recently read about a beautiful concept in Norway. They have a kind of rehabilitation prisons, and they help! America has brutal, and I mean brutal prisons. "The thought alone tis' the howling!"*

*that Shakespeare quote that Megan posted long ago i really like.

[Preston]

Just very quickly found these:

- (1 in 100 in prison this year): http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/29/wo....10561202.html

- (1 in 6 living off of food stamps): http://www.naturalnews.com/032939_fo...epression.html

The article I referred to about 1 in 6 was over a period of time and may have been off, I don't think it was but am not sure.

[Sorrano]

Thanks, Euan, that was well put! My own parents are from a dairy farm background, so I have had some exposure to that. The media does a lot of generalizing and focusing on whatever is their specific agenda. There are too many groups out there, in my opinion, that do more damage than good in attempting to decry the abuses of various industries and commerce.

[Peter]

Farmers aren’t the big problem; the ignorance and prejudice of the general public is.

Euan

Euan my comments were not meant as an attack on farmers - however there are mega farms in the US and there is talk of that being the future of farming (hopefully not). Cows should have the freedom to graze in my opinion and access to shelter.

As to looking after the land, I think there is a greater awareness of the damage that has been done through chemical use, but I think only a minority at the moment farm organically and give some land over to wild flower meadows.

As to the economics, yes there is a huge problem and with no one seriously addressing the most serious problem the world faces - over population, it can only get worse.

[Euan Mackinnon]

Peter

Euan my comments were not meant as an attack on farmers

Thank you but I didn’t take it as such.

As to looking after the land, I think there is a greater awareness of the damage that has been done through chemical use, but I think only a minority at the moment farm organically and give some land over to wild flower meadows.
As to the economics, yes there is a huge problem and with no one seriously addressing the most serious problem the world faces - over population, it can only get worse.

Chemical use: agreed, especially to the water table.

Organic farming: another example of the general public being ignorant, only a tiny minority of whom, I would suggest, actually know what ‘organic farming’ means or involves. They might have some doubts if they bothered to find out the facts.

Wild flowers: I think you might find that more is going on than you realise. Set-aside (which benefits the flora and fauna alike) has been in use for some years promoted and supported at the EU level and widely employed in the UK at least.

Over-population: entirely agreed.

Mega-farms: I see nothing wrong in principle with this especially if, through government-sourced transfer payments, it also allows uneconomic farming in remote areas – Welsh sheep farmers, for example – to be sustained for the good of the land.

Where it becomes a problem is if mega-farms (i) confer disproportionate political power (at all levels); or if (ii) it becomes (as it is becoming) global – China buying up huge tracts of land in Africa, or investment funds becoming involved, for example; or if (iii) it means accountants running the business.

As with so much else the resolution is in our hands: we elect the politicians; we get (and deserve) what we vote for.

Nowhere is this clearer at the moment than the US (the current complete dysfunctionality of the Congress) or the Eurozone (a myopic refusal to grasp the nub of the sovereign debt crisis). The potential effect of either of these (let alone of them in tandem) makes problems with the economics of farming pale into insignificance.

But let me end on a positive note, especially for Preston who appears to despair of the world. There are, I strongly believe, solutions to these political problems. However, these solutions require a fundamental – and I do mean fundamental - re-think of how we perceive and interact with the ‘universe’. Which (among many things but given the title of this forum) raises again the question of music and the human condition posed by Megan in another thread.

Euan

[Sorrano]

Just very quickly found these:


- (1 in 6 living off of food stamps): http://www.naturalnews.com/032939_fo...epression.html

The article I referred to about 1 in 6 was over a period of time and may have been off, I don't think it was but am not sure.

Keep in mind that there are those who will, by choice, go with food stamps because it's easier than working. There is a lot of fraud out there.

[Quijote]

I see this "Breath of fresh air" thread is really opening up to take in issues of industrial and micro (and/or organic) farming practices. I think Euan is right, it is a question of economics more than ethics, but as Euan points out, any business today that willfully ignores the "ethical" or "socially responsible" aspects to their money-making ventures face opprobium and potential economic loss.
Personally, I always buy organic where I can for several reasons : humane treatment of the animals, less "chemicals" in the meat and veg, and taste. Unfortunately, organic produce is very expensive (depending on the country and prevailing attitudes; Germany being cheaper than France, for example), but money talks and the wind of change is in the air.
I know this may strike you as ridiculous, but I even buy (when my budget allows it) organic "prepared" foodstuffs such as pasta. A packet of normal penne costs about 75 centimes, whereas the organic equivalent about is about 2 euros.

[Quijote]

Keep in mind that there are those who will, by choice, go with food stamps because it's easier than working. There is a lot of fraud out there.

Not sure exactly what "food stamps" means, Sorrano, but I imagine it is the equivalent of the "dole" in the UK ("dole" = unemployment benefit). I'm not sure I can agree with you, as I think in reality any life based solely on a benefits system is pretty gruesome, and I do believe that the vast majority of unemployed people (in Europe, at least) would much rather be in work than out of it, and not only for reasons of financial security, e.g. the structure, the feeling of self-worth, the sense of achievement ...
I'm not going to mock what you have posted, but so many in the right-wing press are hasty to condemn those on benefits as "parasites", as benefit frauds and so on, and whilst there are certainly such cases I think it is a very, very, very small minority. Despite my lack of religious faith and cynicism, I do believe the usual human condition to be an honest, fair one (given the right circumstances).