Wagner , Love and Civilization.

[Preston]

I agree at the end, Wagner says, the only real way out from all of this is a complete inundation, or purification and a remaking of the entire world.

Imo, that should be the very point of life for an individual (searching for purity), though it is not and never has been or will be. If a fair world was to be created human-beings would have to be non-existent.

I think on other planets there may be more caring and spiritual species. One thing I find fascinating is - there is always talk of aliens, though the thing that is interesting is that human-beings, with all our technology and endless desire to know more, will be one of the first alien species - meaning we will be the ones to travel into space - and reign our own destruction upon other planets.

[RobertH]

Imo, that should be the very point of life for an individual (searching for purity), though it is not and never has been or will be. If a fair world was to be created human-beings would have to be non-existent.

I think on other planets there may be more caring and spiritual species. One thing I find fascinating is - there is always talk of aliens, though the thing that is interesting is that human-beings, with all our technology and endless desire to know more, will be one of the first alien species - meaning we will be the ones to travel into space - and reign our own destruction upon other planets.

Yes Preston. Don't St. Thomas More's Utopia literally means nowhere.
So, the ideal society either exists nowhere or in the mind, which More is subtly suggesting is the same as nowhere.
The other kinds of Utopias turn out to be dystopias , ie. Brave New World, 1984, Darkness at Noon, and Zamyatin's , We.
So the attempt to locate the ideal world in our physical environment, these great writers are saying is misplaced at the very least, and at worst, conjures up a vision of the infernal regions.

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[Preston]

Yes Preston. Don't St. Thomas More's Utopia literally means nowhere.
So, the ideal society either exists nowhere or in the mind, which More is subtly suggesting is the same as nowhere.
The other kinds of Utopias turn out to be dystopias , ie. Brave New World, 1984, Darkness at Noon, and Zamyatin's , We.
So the attempt to locate the ideal world in our physical environment, these great writers are saying is misplaced at the very least, and at worst, conjures up a vision of the infernal regions.

.

I do not know of St. Thomas More - but he is right, in a general sense regarding Earth. Some form of a utopia may take take place on other planets, I don't know? Though, imo, a completely "pure" and "fair" "utopia" - can only take place among omnipotent beings. Though do they exist? I do not know. There are "magical" powers in this universe beyond anything that can really almost be thought, though does that mean there is an omnipotent being - or just forces for good or evil?

However, are better and more caring worlds not possible? Yes, I think so. Though, I tell you - as a whole, human-beings are a destructive species. It is inbred in us, and therein lies the problem.

From LotR: Men, who above all else desire power...

Utopias turn to dystopias when regarding human-beings, I think, because of the very reason - we crave greed.

The sad thing is, when we create the technology to travel to other planets we will destroy them worse than we destroy ourselves.

I think of the wood-dragon thread and imagine that sacred creature (filled with feeling and spirituality) - and made of wood and nature - not - flesh and blood. Then, I imagine human-beings arriving at that sacred planet and stepping on, breaking, etc. the wood-dragon - all while laughing and howling while it is happening. As a whole - we, will just step on it and laugh - with all our "glorious" power.

[Preston]

Thinking of the world, as a whole, is very disturbing and should not be thought of, imo. We are touching on some very depressing topics. Therefore, I would like to mention do not think of the world as a whole and - value the happiness (family, laughter, etc. - whatever makes one feel happy), peace, and comforts - that each of us enjoy.

[Peter]

Thinking of the world, as a whole, is very disturbing and should not be thought of, imo. We are touching on some very depressing topics. Therefore, I would like to mention do not think of the world as a whole and - value the happiness (family, laughter, etc. - whatever makes one feel happy), peace, and comforts - that each of us enjoy.

It all comes down to our individual approach to life - let me give you a good example: I'm re-reading a very interesting bioghraphy of the outstanding 19th century musician, Pauline Viardot, daughter of the renowned tenor Manuel Garcia whom Rossini wrote specifically for. When she was very young in the 1820s her family went on tour to America and Mexico making quite a lot of money performing operas - whilst in Mexico they were set upon by around 60 brigands who during a 2 hour ordeal tied them up at gun point and stole all the money they had earned on tour. Now comes the amazing bit, their reaction - Pauline recalled how her father laughed about it the same day and how she went to sleep that night surrounded by laughter about the events which they all regarded as the most thrilling and wonderful experience, far more dramatic than the operas they were singing!

This attitude to life is one she kept with her and people always commented on her joie de vivre and her happy outlook on life - an ability to endure adversity and still laugh at it.

[Chaszz]

I thought the character Beckmesser from Meistersinger was often taken as antisemetic?

Here's yet another controversy about Wagner that will never be settled - whether there are caricatures of Jews in his operas. There are many partisans on both sides and books have been written back and forth on this one issue. The defenders say that the artist was too wary of damage to his posthumous reputation to put such caricatures in. My own opinion is that that is why they are somewhat disguised and not as explicit as we would expect from a man of Wagner's directness. But that Beckmesser in Meistersinger, Alberich, Mime and Hagen in The Ring, and Klingsor in Parsifal, exhibit too many of the old prejudices about Jews to let the librettist/composer off the hook, knowing his extreme antisemitism in general, and that his defenders are bending severely over backwards to avoid admitting this.

[RobertH]

Wagner can't win either way it seems.
If he is blatantly anti semitic there is certainly no direct evidence for this in the operas. But even if it is not there, certain characteristics that are said to be associated with Jews, ie. Avarice are read into the characters so that he is accused of anti semitism by default. And by the way, isn't it inherently anti semitic to even assume that Jewish people are greedy, mean , etc. which is what condemns the latter statement anyway.
I don't think it is a particularly healthy road to go down for any musicologist for what I trust are fairly obvious reasons. The monsters who supervised the camps after all played Bach, but not as far as I am aware any Wagner and public performances of the operas fell greatly out of favour with the Nazi leadership after about 1941, in favour of oddly enough and I don't know why, Bruckner ,( a particular favourite of Goebbels ).

[Chaszz]

Wagner can't win either way it seems.
If he is blatantly anti semitic there is certainly no direct evidence for this in the operas...

I have read completely only a few of the books and articles on this. But I'd like to recommend to you two that I have, that can found on the web. One is Wagner: Race and Revolution by Paul Lawrence Rose. books.google.com will let you dip into this book. I cannot copy relevant passages here, as Google copy-protects them. But if you do a search on, for example, 'Mime,' you'll find an argument supporting the contention that Mime is a Jewish caricature.

Also a well-argued University of Tennessee senior thesis on this issue is available on the web at
http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewc...hin%20Opera%22

If you pull this up and do a search on the phrase ' Der Ring des Nibelungen is a cycle of four operas ' (leave out the quote marks) you'll find a discussion of Jewish caricatures not only in The Ring but in Beckmesser of Meistersinger.

This issue cannot be conclusively settled one way or the other. But I think these writings argue strongly that Jewish caricatures are in the operas, somewhat obscured and disguised as I say in order to fit with the requirements of higher art and posterity's judgment.

[Peter]

Wagner can't win either way it seems.
If he is blatantly anti semitic there is certainly no direct evidence for this in the operas. But even if it is not there, certain characteristics that are said to be associated with Jews, ie. Avarice are read into the characters so that he is accused of anti semitism by default. And by the way, isn't it inherently anti semitic to even assume that Jewish people are greedy, mean , etc. which is what condemns the latter statement anyway.
I don't think it is a particularly healthy road to go down for any musicologist for what I trust are fairly obvious reasons. The monsters who supervised the camps after all played Bach, but not as far as I am aware any Wagner and public performances of the operas fell greatly out of favour with the Nazi leadership after about 1941, in favour of oddly enough and I don't know why, Bruckner ,( a particular favourite of Goebbels ).

There can be no question that Wagner (along with many prominent European 19th century figures) was anti-semitic regardless of what may or not be in the operas. This misses the fundamental point though which is that Wagner does not equal holocaust - had Hitler not come to power there would not have been genocide and Wagner's antisemitism would have been a footnote in history completely obscured by the greatness of his art - the Nazis perverted everything they came into contact with including great music.

[Chaszz]

There can be no question that Wagner (along with many prominent European 19th century figures) was anti-semitic regardless of what may or not be in the operas. This misses the fundamental point though which is that Wagner does not equal holocaust - had Hitler not come to power there would not have been genocide and Wagner's antisemitism would have been a footnote in history completely obscured by the greatness of his art - the Nazis perverted everything they came into contact with including great music.

Excellent point, Peter.

[Preston]

It all comes down to our individual approach to life...

Naturally, which is why I was stating one should not necessarily, or with any kind of ease, look at the world as a whole - though it is there.

Good individuality in humanity is a beautiful thing - and not something that should be taken for granted - as so much is.

Though, what are people to do - greed, corruption, lust, etc. - sin - is destroying everything of good in the earth? The thing is - it is a small number of people - when compared to the infinite waves of "better human-beings" ("" - imo) - that are the cause of the problem.

I ask you, if such sin can take place within the human species - sin that is far worse than any death, sin that is almost wholly pain - and terrible pain at that (pain that should never be, to my mind) - should the human species continue to be?

Sad but true, imo.

Imo, it will eventually only spread to other planets and species.

Either way, while I judge - I am not a judge, and such things are not for me to decide.

[Peter]

Naturally, which is why I was stating one should not necessarily, or with any kind of ease, look at the world as a whole - though it is there.

Good individuality in humanity is a beautiful thing - and not something that should be taken for granted - as so much is.

Though, what are people to do - greed, corruption, lust, etc. - sin - is destroying everything of good in the earth? The thing is - it is a small number of people - when compared to the infinite waves of "better human-beings" ("" - imo) - that are the cause of the problem.

I ask you, if such sin can take place within the human species - sin that is far worse than any death, sin that is almost wholly pain - and terrible pain at that (pain that should never be, to my mind) - should the human species continue to be?

Sad but true, imo.

Imo, it will eventually only spread to other planets and species.

Either way, while I judge - I am not a judge, and such things are not for me to decide.

But that is just one side of the story Preston which is why I think we should look at the whole. Unfortunately we are bombarded with the negative daily in the news, but there are wonderful things happening such as conservation, charity work and the vast majority going about their lives peacefully!

[Peter]

Excellent point, Peter.

Thank you Chaszz - I'm not attempting to condone Wagner's views and I have great sympathies with those who have difficulties with him because of subsequent events. I think attempting to deny Wagner's antisemitism (as some do) is counter-productive, the evidence is far too strong, but I do think a sense of context and proportion is necessary.

[RobertH]

Peter, I quite agree!


Preston.
We are surely not going to make a happier world around us unless and until we have put ourselves right in some mysterious way, with all the things very evidently that are going wrong with us. Wagner is quite relevant here I think, because he was far too self conscious a person and an artist not to be aware of the pain he was capable of causing others. He left a trail of massive unpaid debts across Germany, because he refused to cut back on his extravagant spending when he had virtually no income, and these creditors , some of whom were Jews, but were hardly plutocrats with families to feed whom he was seemingly unconcerned for . He was a man who was obsessed with every creative process and writing it down and describing it, so he must have been aware of how his appalling behaviour must have affected others. Or it maybe he had a kind of autism which meant one part of him couldn't acknowledge what the other part was doing. All I would say though in his defense, is that we have no idea really of what mental or spiritual or emotional suffering and sacrifice he must have gone through to have created the Ring. One of the great moral lessons to come out of the Ring, is that one has to accept frustration and renunciation as a kind of destiny, which very, very few people can do. We have an obsession in our society with a sick form of so called succes. But Wagner is saying, that if you can win through here, and stick at it, an enormous power comes into and through you, which the faint hearted will never be able to experience, because they gave up too early. Embrace distress and doubt and renounce success and comfort. It is exactly the thing this society around us cannot do, but they are not the winners by it, far from it, because there is far more avoidable misery than there needs to be. These are great lessons for us, I think.

[Preston]

Robert I cannot talk anymore philosophy, though for the most part I believe you are right in your writing. Please check you private messages.