Harmony of the Cosmos

[Joy]

Here;s another interesting article and sounds.

http://www-pw.physics.uiowa.edu/spac...003_301_11.wav

[Michael]

It would have made no sound at all, as there was not yet any medium for the propagation of sound. And anyway, matter was not yet organized in the manner we are familiar with. If it even happened exactly as physicists currently believe, and who even knows about that!

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Paraphrasing that hoary old "tree in the forest" conundrum, apart from there being no medium in which the sound could travel, if there were no ears to hear the Big Bang, how could it have made a sound?
Then again, I suppose electromagnetic waves exist independently of receptors. Light can exist without eyes.
Or can it? Can the waves be particles?
Can this universe exist even when I am gone?
I think not. (Therefore, I am not. Gosh!)

[EternaLisa]

Then again, I suppose electromagnetic waves exist independently of receptors. Light can exist without eyes.
Or can it? Can the waves be particles?
Can this universe exist even when I am gone?
I think not. (Therefore, I am not. Gosh!)

where would/could you "gone" to anyway? Ohm away from Om...?

[Preston]

Paraphrasing that hoary old "tree in the forest" conundrum, apart from there being no medium in which the sound could travel, if there were no ears to hear the Big Bang, how could it have made a sound?
Then again, I suppose electromagnetic waves exist independently of receptors. Light can exist without eyes.
Or can it? Can the waves be particles?
Can this universe exist even when I am gone?
I think not. (Therefore, I am not. Gosh!)

Michael, lol, you "took the words out of my mouth" - so to say. Since Chris wrote that I have thought about the "tree in the forest" a few times. It is kind of a 'trick' question. The answer to the question is yes it makes sound as it always would just that no one can hear it. I would imagine the Big Bang made unimaginable sounds - though, as Chris said - we really cannot be certain. Perhaps a massive explosion of gases and what-not made no sound though I do doubt that.

[Preston]

The thing is the note B could possibly be true, in a very general since I imagine - more like B is a basis. Though, to know, we need to know where it came from and study the philosophy behind this theory.

[Chris]

Michael, lol, you "took the words out of my mouth" - so to say. Since Chris wrote that I have thought about the "tree in the forest" a few times. It is kind of a 'trick' question. The answer to the question is yes it makes sound as it always would just that no one can hear it.

It is a little more deep than that. It certainly produces sound waves. But what are these sound waves? Merely vibrations in the air. You perceive them as "sound" because the vibrations interact with your ears and are interpreted by your brain. But if there are no ears to interact with the vibrations, and no brain to interpret them, is that really sound?

[Preston]

It is a little more deep than that. It certainly produces sound waves. But what are these sound waves? Merely vibrations in the air. You perceive them as "sound" because the vibrations interact with your ears and are interpreted by your brain. But if there are no ears to interact with the vibrations, and no brain to interpret them, is that really sound?

I think I see what you are saying though I think it comes down to that sound exists even if there is nothing to hear it, imo, because either way it makes noise. True that we would not be able to tell that were there no way to hear it - but it would be there. For instance, usually, when a material touches another material it creates a reaction causing sound whether it can be heard or not. If a tree falls it cracks and shatters (to some extent), etc. and in doing so touching all kinds of other materials which create sound whether we hear it or not. At least, that is my understanding.

[Chris]

Those things create sound waves, that is, vibrations in the air. But when we think of sound, we usually think of how our brains interpret those vibrations. So it really comes down to how you define sound. If you define sound as sound waves, then yes, a tree falling in a forest with no one around does make a sound. But if you define sound as the interpretation of sound waves by your brain, then it doesn't.

[Peter]

Interesting debate - I think what you're really saying is that there is no such thing as reality, only a perception of it as defined by our limited senses?

[Chris]

Interesting debate - I think what you're really saying is that there is no such thing as reality, only a perception of it as defined by our limited senses?

Me? No, you would not find me arguing that point! There is reality. Our direct experience of it is only through our own senses, but we can know things about it through our intellects as well.

Though it is interesting to note that how we perceive things (whether or not we perceive them) affects reality in ways we would not expect. Firing a stream of photons at a barrier with two slits will make different patterns depending on whether or not you obtain knowledge about which slits the photons went through. Very strange!

[Peter]

Me? No, you would not find me arguing that point! There is reality. Our direct experience of it is only through our own senses, but we can know things about it through our intellects as well.

Though it is interesting to note that how we perceive things (whether or not we perceive them) affects reality in ways we would not expect. Firing a stream of photons at a barrier with two slits will make different patterns depending on whether or not you obtain knowledge about which slits the photons went through. Very strange!

Well take vision, we see things differently to other creatures. Take sound - we hear things differently and your own remarks suggest that we are only interpreting sound waves - other creatures would hear these sounds differently, so reality can only be our interpretation of it through our limited senses? Other interpretations are possible through different senses and therefore what is the reality?

[Michael]

....... it is interesting to note that how we perceive things (whether or not we perceive them) affects reality in ways we would not expect. Firing a stream of photons at a barrier with two slits will make different patterns depending on whether or not you obtain knowledge about which slits the photons went through. Very strange!

Yes - even the act of observing these photons changes their behaviour. Curiouser and curioser!
(I've just got a feeling of deja vu! I think the above discussion took place away back in this forum. I could be wrong - it could be a stray brain wave or a quark!)

[Chris]

Other interpretations are possible through different senses and therefore what is the reality?

The reality of the sound is the sound wave. We know what it is and what it does. How we directly perceive it is particular to us, true, but I don't think that makes it unreal in any way; we just have to recognize that it is not a universal experience.

[Preston]

The reality of the sound is the sound wave. We know what it is and what it does. How we directly perceive it is particular to us, true, but I don't think that makes it unreal in any way; we just have to recognize that it is not a universal experience.

Yes, sound is the sound wave and it, the sound wave, travels to our ear - which is what I was saying - though I think where we got mixed up is that we were approaching sound differently at the time, .

Anyways, Chris, I am curious to know what you mean by "it is not a universal experience"?

[Chris]

Anyways, Chris, I am curious to know what you mean by "it is not a universal experience"?

Just that we hear a tree falling down the way we do not just because of the sound waves it produces, but because of the way our ears and brain work. If our ears and brain worked differently, it would sound like something else to us. To animals that have more or less sensitive senses of hearing, or can hear in a greater or lesser range of frequencies, it would sound different. You can even imagine a different kind of creature with no ears at all, but that is able to detect the vibrations in the air with a very sensitive kind of sense of touch. Such a creature would not perceive these vibrations as "sound" at all, but more like a breeze blowing across your skin.