life (cosmology)

[Chris]

Yes, I agree. I too am skeptical about being able to travel to another planet. One of the closest solar systems, if I remember correctly, is around 4 light years away - which means traveling at the speed of light for 4 years.

Ah, but provided we could come close to the speed of light, the people actually on the journey would not experience nearly that much time. It is conceivable that you could journey across the entire universe in your own lifetime, in fact. Though so much time will have passed on earth by then, there's really no point.

I do not know if such technology can be created based on the elements of Earth. Though that is not the real point either, the point is you would have to travel far beyond light speed (really a speed where there is no limit to how fast one could go - in a sense) to make a somewhat "quick journey" to another planet.

Unless Einstein was quite wrong, we can never travel faster than the speed of light (or even at the speed of light). But we may be able to find shortcuts through space that will bring us places faster than if we could. I think we will indeed develop this technology. Perhaps not in our lifetimes, but do think it will happen.

[Preston]

Ah, but provided we could come close to the speed of light, the people actually on the journey would not experience nearly that much time. It is conceivable that you could journey across the entire universe in your own lifetime, in fact. Though so much time will have passed on earth by then, there's really no point.

I agree, if they were awake then they would, though if they were in some type of cryogenic sleep they would not. Is that what you mean?

Unless Einstein was quite wrong, we can never travel faster than the speed of light (or even at the speed of light). But we may be able to find shortcuts through space that will bring us places faster than if we could. I think we will indeed develop this technology. Perhaps not in our lifetimes, but do think it will happen.

I think travel at light speed will quite possibly happen, though am not entirely sure. I agree, definitely most likely not in our lifetimes.

I find it interesting that Einstein said that. To my mind, the key to traveling past the speed of light does not lie in some "super-powered-spaceship" (most likely) but would lie in perhaps something as gravitational pulls in the galaxy (which I learned from the expanded Star Wars universe, ), wormholes, etc. - as you say shortcuts through space - which could be many different types of ways.

Either way, I do believe speeds far faster (so much faster) than light (as we understand and know it) exist. Perhaps not in this galaxy or universe (though I imagine they do) but speed can go as fast as any number - it just takes a different type of power - a more divine power to make it happen, imo.

[Chris]

I agree, if they were awake then they would, though if they were in some type of cryogenic sleep they would not. Is that what you mean?

No, I am referring to time dilation due to relativity. The people on the ship would experience less time than the people on earth.

Either way, I do believe speeds far faster (so much faster) than light (as we understand and know it) exist. Perhaps not in this galaxy or universe (though I imagine they do) but speed can go as fast as any number - it just takes a different type of power - a more divine power to make it happen, imo.

According to the laws of physics as we presently understand them (which have been experimentally confirmed in a number of ways), speed CANNOT be any number. The speed of light is a theoretical maximum. The speed of light is very special. Something traveling at the speed of light looks to be moving at the same speed in all inertial frames. Thus we have peculiarities like time dilation and length contraction. Nothing with mass can reach the speed the light. If you tried, what would happen is that you could accelerate more and more, but it would require more and more energy. You can get arbitrarily close to the speed of light, but no matter how much energy you dump into your acceleration, you will never reach it. It would require infinite energy, so to speak. If there were a way to travel faster than the speed of light, you would be traveling backward in time.

[Preston]

No, I am referring to time dilation due to relativity. The people on the ship would experience less time than the people on earth.

I looked up "time dilation due to relativity" and fundamentally it does not make sense when referring to traveling at lightspeed when using something as a "spaceship" traveling at or close to the speed of light. The reason being is because you would be alive and coherent traveling at the speed of light. For instance, if one was to travel 1/2 a year from Earth into space and then return traveling the same speed - it would be exactly a year both for the person who traveled the speed of light and for Earth. So I lose you here?

According to the laws of physics as we presently understand them (which have been experimentally confirmed in a number of ways), speed CANNOT be any number. The speed of light is a theoretical maximum. The speed of light is very special. Something traveling at the speed of light looks to be moving at the same speed in all inertial frames. Thus we have peculiarities like time dilation and length contraction. Nothing with mass can reach the speed the light. If you tried, what would happen is that you could accelerate more and more, but it would require more and more energy. You can get arbitrarily close to the speed of light, but no matter how much energy you dump into your acceleration, you will never reach it. It would require infinite energy, so to speak. If there were a way to travel faster than the speed of light, you would be traveling backward in time.

That is wrong, imo. Because you are talking about light as we know it - such as the sun, fire, electricity, etc. Though, what I am talking about is that there are other forms of light (things we do not know about and are possibly not in this universe) that exist. I am not referring to the the relevance of light to this universe but to "light" in a more general sense.

Such as, if there is an omnipotent being do you believe the fastest it could make "light", or since we are talking speed through gravity, wormholes, etc., something - anything - travel is the speed of light. Of course not.

Another point is not basing travel on light but on other things we do not fully understand that exist in this universe. Such as gravity. Imagine if some kind of gravitational pull could travel past the speed of light? In truth, imo, we cannot say that light is the fastest in this universe.

According to the laws of physics as we presently understand them (which have been experimentally confirmed in a number of ways), speed CANNOT be any number.

I wanted to touch on this again. Basically, if that is, what the laws of physics say than they are wrong, imo. The laws of physics as we know them are relative to our planet and some of space. Even if the laws did apply to this unimaginably large universe - I would still disagree. Because this is only this universe. There are many laws that apply that do not relate to this universe - that we have know understanding of and never will.

So in short, if the laws of physics state that speed cannot be any number, than that part is rubbish. Primarily because THE LAWS ARE ONLY BASED ON WHAT WE KNOW AS OF NOW AND THE MATH WE KNOW AS OF NOW. They may not even apply to this universe. Even if they did there are so many other types of elements and ways a very massive environment could be constructed that we could never know.

[Chris]

For instance, if one was to travel 1/2 a year from Earth into space and then return traveling the same speed - it would be exactly a year both for the person who traveled the speed of light and for Earth. So I lose you here?

Yes, that's not right. The same amount of time would not pass for both people. It depends on how fast the person traveling is going (on the acceleration, really). This is the good old "twin paradox." One twin gets on a spaceship and travels near the speed of light for a time and then turns around and returns to earth. The other twin stays on earth. When the twin on the ship gets back to earth he finds that he has aged less than the twin who stayed on earth. Believe it or not, this is a real phenomenon. We just don't notice it in our day-to-day lives, because we are traveling at much less than the speed of light and so don't notice the effect. It works the same way with gravity. In fact, if we did not account for gravitational time dilation, our GPS units would not work, because they would not sync up correctly.

That is wrong, imo. Because you are talking about light as we know it - such as the sun, fire, electricity, etc. Though, what I am talking about is that there are other forms of light (things we do not know about and are possibly not in this universe) that exist. I am not referring to the the relevance of light to this universe but to "light" in a more general sense.

By "light", we just mean electromagnetic radiation. That is, photons. And really, it has nothing to do with light. You could substitute any massless particle. The point is that the speed at which these massless particles travel, which we call C (about 300,000 km/s), is a kind of universal speed limit.

Such as, if there is an omnipotent being do you believe the fastest it could make "light", or since we are talking speed through gravity, wormholes, etc., something - anything - travel is the speed of light. Of course not.

Well, the one who created the laws of physics could set them to anything he likes, of course! But that doesn't do us much good, as we are living in the universe and have to deal with its laws as they are.

Another point is not basing travel on light but on other things we do not fully understand that exist in this universe. Such as gravity. Imagine if some kind of gravitational pull could travel past the speed of light? In truth, imo, we cannot say that light is the fastest in this universe.

In theory, and according to measurements, gravity also propagates at the speed of light.

I wanted to touch on this again. Basically, if that is, what the laws of physics say than they are wrong, imo. The laws of physics as we know them are relative to our planet and some of space. Even if the laws did apply to this unimaginably large universe - I would still disagree. Because this is only this universe. There are many laws that apply that do not relate to this universe - that we have know understanding of and never will.

If it is something outside of our universe, then by definition we can never know anything about it. Interesting to think about, but not very useful if we are trying to travel the stars.

So in short, if the laws of physics state that speed cannot be any number, than that part is rubbish. Primarily because THE LAWS ARE ONLY BASED ON WHAT WE KNOW AS OF NOW AND THE MATH WE KNOW AS OF NOW. They may not even apply to this universe. Even if they did there are so many other types of elements and ways a very massive environment could be constructed that we could never know.

I think we can be reasonably certain about some things. This appears to be a law of physics that cannot be broken. But it is possible that we could figure out a way around it. Perhaps through some sort of quantum trickery or through some sort of warping of space (wormhole). In other words, we can't travel faster than the speed of light, but we may be able to find shortcuts so that we don't have to in order to travel great distances quickly.

[Preston]

It depends on how fast the person traveling is going (on the acceleration, really).

I still disagree. Perhaps I do not understand? Though, as I understand it, a light year is, simply, traveling at the speed of light based on a Earth (our planet) year.

Well, the one who created the laws of physics could set them to anything he likes, of course! But that doesn't do us much good, as we are living in the universe and have to deal with its laws as they are.

That is my point. That is the laws of physics are based on math as we know it, elements as we know it, the universe as we know it, etc. So therefore, I would say it is not accurate on most likely many things. Then you bring in other powers then the powers of this universe and it completely bewilders everything. So yes, I fully believe an object can travel far past the speed to any thinkable number.

In theory, and according to measurements, gravity also propagates at the speed of light.

Again, there are a lot of things we do not know about and therefore have no answer. Such as, what gravity can precisely do. Also, I was using gravity in more of a general sense to explain that there are many things in our galaxy that we do not know of and therefore cannot tell how travel to other, or all, solar systems would be possible.

If it is something outside of our universe, then by definition we can never know anything about it. Interesting to think about, but not very useful if we are trying to travel the stars.

True, perhaps. Though, information outside our universe could be the most valuable information for traveling the stars that we could ever know.

In other words, we can't travel faster than the speed of light, but we may be able to find shortcuts so that we don't have to in order to travel great distances quickly.

I still (wholly for now) disagree (though am skeptical) about not traveling past the speed of light within this universe- because in truth human beings do not wholly (by any means) know what is out there.

[Chris]

I still disagree. Perhaps I do not understand? Though, as I understand it, a light year is, simply, traveling at the speed of light based on a Earth (our planet) year.

A light-year is just a measure of distance equal to how far something travelling at the speed of light travels in one Earth year. That's based on the perspective of someone not traveling at the speed of light. If you could somehow travel at the speed of light, you would not experience the passage of time at all. You can't really disagree with this, as we have actually tried it and observed it to be true.

I still (wholly for now) disagree (though am skeptical) about not traveling past the speed of light within this universe- because in truth human beings do not wholly (by any means) know what is out there.

There may be some way around this cosmic speed limit, but it isn't just by accelerating more and more. If you do that, you will never reach the speed of light. It is impossible. There may be some way around this obstacle due to something we haven't discovered yet, but it is not by just speeding up more and more. No matter how much energy you put into it, all the energy in the universe even, you could not accelerate an object with mass to the speed of light. The universe just doesn't work that way. But this isn't so bad, because it means we can play around with space and time like we never knew we could. Want to travel a thousand years into the future? Just park yourself near a black hole for a while!

[Preston]

If you could somehow travel at the speed of light, you would not experience the passage of time at all.

Perhaps. Though, if a "spaceship" that was capable of producing gravity - and you were fully coherent, traveled for a light year it would be and feel to the people traveling in the spaceship like a year - and on Earth the year would go by just as it usually does. That is my opinion. So yes, I believe that you would experience the passage of time. I mean that is common sense.

There may be some way around this cosmic speed limit, but it isn't just by accelerating more and more. If you do that, you will never reach the speed of light. It is impossible. There may be some way around this obstacle due to something we haven't discovered yet, but it is not by just speeding up more and more. No matter how much energy you put into it, all the energy in the universe even, you could not accelerate an object with mass to the speed of light. The universe just doesn't work that way. But this isn't so bad, because it means we can play around with space and time like we never knew we could. Want to travel a thousand years into the future? Just park yourself near a black hole for a while!

For your first point, I guess it depends on what is accelerating and how. Technically, you would be speeding up - beyond light speed. As for black holes - we really have no clue. Though Stephen Hawking has some interesting ideas.

All The Best,
Preston

[Chris]

Perhaps. Though, if a "spaceship" that was capable of producing gravity - and you were fully coherent, traveled for a light year it would be and feel to the people traveling in the spaceship like a year - and on Earth the year would go by just as it usually does. That is my opinion. So yes, I believe that you would experience the passage of time. I mean that is common sense.

Nevertheless, it is not true. You would experience the passage of time like normal, yes, as far as your own frame of reference, in your own spaceship. But if you looked out the window and saw people on Earth, they would all appear to be frozen and unmoving. And though from their perspective time would be flowing as usual, if they could look through the window into your spaceship, you would appear to be frozen and unmoving. Quite counterintuitive, yes, but there are a lot of things in physics that are counterintuitive. You would think that you could go as fast as you like just by accelerating indefinitely, because that matches your everyday experiences, but you cannot. You would think that everyone experiences time the same way, but they do not. You would think that you can simultaneously know the position and momentum of anything, but...you cannot.

For your first point, I guess it depends on what is accelerating and how. Technically, you would be speeding up - beyond light speed. As for black holes - we really have no clue. Though Stephen Hawking has some interesting ideas.

You could substitute any extremely massive object. The idea is that gravity causes time dilation. Clocks close to a gravity well run slower. As I said, that is why we have to account for this on our GPS satellites; otherwise they get out of sync and everything gets way off very quickly.

[Michael]

Unless Einstein was quite wrong, we can never travel faster than the speed of light (or even at the speed of light). But we may be able to find shortcuts through space that will bring us places faster than if we could. I think we will indeed develop this technology. Perhaps not in our lifetimes, but do think it will happen.

These "wormholes" actually do exist. Kirk and Picard use them all the time.
(Oh, but that's in the future - silly me!)

[Quijote]

All this talk of wormholes and folding the time-space continuum on itself to facilitate ease of travel around the universe, and maybe even time travel, makes me feel that it's time for a sketch. Thus:

The scene : Vienna, circa 1825, Beethoven's apartment.
The players :
LvB : Himself;
Various musicians and composers post 1827 : Themselves;
Various BRS forum members : Themselves.

[Beethoven is seated at his piano, improvising and thinking about writing a new quartet or something]

LvB : Du-de, du-de, du-de das-dumb-dumb ... Nah, doesn't work. Goddam, my muse has abandoned me today ...

[Suddenly a wormhole opens, and in walks Delius, for it is he.]

Delius : Beethoven, you fraud, it's all just filling with you !!
LvB : Vas? Ah, my man-servant Peter the Quixotic is off today, I had forgotten. You must be his replacement. Yes, my chamber pots are just over there. Don't spill any, mind!
LvB : Du-de, du-de, du-de das-dumb-dumb ... Nah, still doesn't work. What is a man to do?
[Another wormhole opens ...]
Mahler (for it is he) : Master, will you ever forgive me for tampering with your Ninth?
LvB : Neither you nor that pompous cross dresser Wagner, you bastards! Now get out!
[LvB suddenly stops and thinks : "How the hell did I know that?" Shrugs, and continues improvising. Suddenly, he finds a rhythm not unlike that famous theme from Dvorak's New World symphony].
LvB : Du-de di-da-da, du-de di-da-dah ...Got it ! I think with this I shall compose a new grand symphony dedicated to my American fans. This shall be my 11th !!
[Yet another worm hole opens and etc etc ...]
[Enter The Dude, EdC, Chris and Preston (for it is they]
The Dude : Yo, Lud, how'z it hangin', dude?
LvB : Vas?
EdC : Ignore him, Master, he's from Texas. Look, here are some schematics, drawings and other hi-tech squiggly lines that try to convey the structure of your works. What d'ya think?
LvB : Er ...
Preston : Are you a buddhist, Mr B?
LvB : Vas?
Chris : Gentlemen, we are overloading the Master with questions. Give him a break. What about some dinner?
LvB : Now you're talking. Roast veal?
EdC, Chris, The Du-de, Preston, all shouting in unison : You gotta be kiddin', we're talkin' T-bone !!
[Wormhole etc etc]
Bruckner : Master, that rhythm you were humming at the beginning of this sketch ... [stops and thinks to himself "How the hell did I know that?] ... er, that's mine!
LvB : What do I care? A man's got to make a living. Now beat it, Bruckner, before I strap you to my Graaf.
[Wormhole, etc etc]
Bonn 1824 : Strewth, is that you, Mate? Er, I mean, Master?
LvB : Good God, when will this end? ...

End of Act 1, Scene 1.

[Preston]

My main points throughout the conversation have been - that we really do not know what is capable, that if a person travels a light year the individual experiences a typical Earth year at the speed of light and the individuals on Earth experience another standard Earth year where they go about their daily affairs, that I imagine going faster than lightspeed is probably possible in this galaxy, and that speed can be any number.

That and one of the main points that I thought would provide for interesting discussion was in my reply to Peter's post:

"Asides from all that, personally, when I think about it, even if we did have the ability to travel at some kind of hyper-speed I imagine it would not be best for human beings to go to other species planets. We are destroying our entire planet so why destroy another? "

[Michael]

I really must look at this Sunday's "Wonders of the Universe" as it deals with the very subject you are all discussing - light.
I can watch it on Sky. I don't know if this BBC programme is available in the USA and I doubt if you can get it on the net. The BBC is very parochial about its programmes. I live in Ireland and cannot access any BBC video content online. Radio is okay.

[The Dude]

"Yo, Lud"? I think you're confused with Mammy from "Gone With the Wind": "Yo, lordy (Mr. Rhett) you IS bad"! Mammy was from the deep south. Jett Rink was from Texas.

[Sorrano]

Love those sketches, Philip, keep 'em coming!