Education, Standards and Culture

[Bonn1827]

Moving the debate about educational standards, inter alia, over to this side of the Site, at the suggestion of Peter.

I am one of those who thinks that education shouldn't be free - that nothing good can be gained by paying nothing (and I'm not talking about general government revenue here - i.e. the public purse). I wrote a letter in a major national newspaper to this effect about 5 years ago and was the object of scorn and derision from a few of my colleagues in teaching. But I think there is something in this, if you will indulge me a little. Most of the schools I taught in were in a shabby condition, the parents did not have to pay fees, the curtains were torn, toilets trashed and general appearance of the place was of a medieval fortress. I believed that if parents were financial stakeholders in the schools things would be very different: that ownership changes peoples' attitudes to property. Many of the students didn't value school because of the poor condition of the buildings and hardware, just as a starting point. Even school computers were trashed and little cared for. Conversely, in private schools there is greater care taken with these things because many of the parents have raised money themselves to buy them, through fetes and the like. There is, therefore, a proprietary sensibility in the school community. This flows on to education itself, the subjects and disciplines since there are better resources available to encourage more effective learning. (Syllabus matters are the prerogative of a State authority and cannot be negotiated by individual schools). In this country, with its very high standard of living, it seems ludicrous to me to see parents pulling up in expensive all-wheeled drive vehicles (and there are tens and tens of thousands of them) who are not paying a single cent for their childrens' education. That's the issue I have, but I know it is controversial. This does not mean that those who cannot afford to pay should be disadvantaged - education should be means tested to help these people.

Secondly, I'm not at all sure I agree with Peter about useless university degrees. There is a school (sorry, no pun intended) of thought which says that vocational degrees get people jobs when generalist humanities degrees do not. I think the jury is still out on this. As to declining standards - well, yes, the problem is the teaching profession itself which no longer is able to add up manually, nor can teachers understand grammar. A dear friend who is a Maths teacher explained it this way - kids are being asked to do ever more complex things in Mathematics, so it's not as simple as addition, subtraction and multiplication. I saw that for myself with my Extension English students when I looked at a senior Maths text book and was daunted by what I saw there. I still think kids are very smart, certainly in terms of adaptability, tolerance and resilience.

[Peter]

As to the issue of funding, well parents would justfiably argue they pay for that in their taxes, but I get your point.

On to standards, I think we need to get real in the west about what is going on. We have been duped for decades by successive governements who are keen to show an improvement in education standards. The slump in the study of core subjects has been caused by the decision to give non-academic qualifications equal value in league tables – thus encouraging schools to put their children through the easiest exams, rather than the most enriching.

In the UK, the number of pupils achieving good GCSEs in five core subjects has declined steeply to just 15 per cent over the past four years, while the number taking vocational qualifications has rocketed by 2,300 per cent to 540,000 since 2004. The study of languages, maths and science are in serious decline, in contrast to Asian countries - no surprise then that China is set to overtake the US as the no.1 economy.

I don't agree that "kids are being asked to do ever more complex things in Mathematics" - I have seen questions from a 1910 paper for 11 year olds that would be beyond most A level students today. It's a complete cop out to say "so it's not as simple as addition, subtraction and multiplication" as though that is all we ever had to do. These are the basics from which you build and to not teach them properly is really a betrayal.

[Bonn1827]

Well, I see that you are very passionate about this!! Things are quite different here in Australia, but our (just today) elected Labor Government is hell bent on introducing league tables too!! Our (single female) Prime Minister believes you should be able to consult "lists" for anything from schools to dentists and doctors, in order to find "the best". How out of touch she is.

We'll have to disagree about Mathematics as I have faith in my friend (of 31 years) and what she says. Like me, she's of the "old school" herself and I have great faith in her judgment. She's into rigour, as I am. Let's say our two countries must do it differently. As to English - my own area - I was horrified to find how bad literacy levels had declined but, having said that, the very top of the candidature is as good, if not better, than ever before! Complex texts, abstract ideas and big essays. I'm talking about the cream here. I went to a trial marking seminar 6 years ago for marking Extension 1 (the very top 2%) English and the area of study was "Revenge Tragedy". The students had to study "Medea" and "The Revenger's Tragedy", plus one text they nominated themselves. They had 1 hour to write about all three. In one of the sample scripts we were discussing and marking one student had used Richard Strauss' opera "Elektra" as related supplementary text. I was moved to tears when I read this magnificent essay - and there were lots which were nearly as good as this on that day I'll never forget. So, the top achievers are really outstanding and we mustn't forget that more people than ever before in human history can read and write. Dumbing down IS an issue - which is why we get "crash bang" music courses in high schools. But I still think kids are clever and innovative as never before. I miss them every day!!

[Peter]

Yes Bonn I can agree with that - I think there may be a difference between our countries and I hope you don't go down our path! I don't mean to decry the kids in any way - of course there are brilliant kids out there, but it does them no favours to be given the same grade as someone of lesser ability which is what has been happening. We have now introduced an A* grade to distinguish from the A grade pupils this is how silly it is getting. Soon we'll have A** etc!!!!

The problem is not the kids - it's a poor system driven by politicians and dogma that is letting not just the bright kids down but especially I think the less able.

[Bonn1827]

You are, of course, absolutely right on that last point. Politicians who pander to the lowest common denominator - yes!! Once upon a time families took care of nurturing and educating their children, as well as inspiring them to improve. We have all, in the West, degenerated into the lamentable situation of having people suck on the public teat - the Nanny State - and that has created a dependency mentality. Don't get me started on THAT!!

I think we really agree on much and I very much appreciate being able to debate these things with you, sir!! Once upon a time I would discuss these things in the English Faculty staffroom: the best conversations could be had there and everyone said so!!

[Preston]

I believe the teaching of the arts should be a priority in schools, starting at a very early age.

Also, the public schools, at least in America, have a somewhat prison feel and a prison attitude, it seems this only makes students dread going to the school. When I was in middle-school I dreaded going, because the school was in horrid condition, fights would break out a lot, the bathrooms were filthy (seriously), and there was nothing to fascinating to me about it, etc. I had no interest in going to school, or what I considered prison- at least at that age. They might as well have had bars on the windows and barb-wired fences.

One thing I could not stand about middle-school was the central heat and air- it was horrible! As I said, it was an older school and their were huge vents surrounding the interior of the classrooms- they would make the loudest noises and it was, always, too hot or too cold, for almost everyone.

I remember in 4th grade I went to a school for one day to see if I would like going there. So, the day finally came and I sat in class with the rest of the kids- then out of no where a fight broke out- the one day I went, lol.

What I am trying to express is that, imo, the public schools (I know too little of the private, though I did attend one for several years) and the entire way the education system works in America needs to be redone, reworked, etc. Though, then again the entire world needs to be redone, reworked, etc.!

I mean, sending kids to school 5 days a week starting at 8:30 in the morning until 3:30 (and these are children!) and confining them- is completely ridiculous, to my mind?

Nowadays, I think home-school is the best way for a child to learn, though, I do believe interaction with other children, different classes, different races, religions, beliefs, etc. is extremely important.

[Preston]

As for culture, people need to stop being idiots and slow down. It is a war for money and the best job. Now, it is work, work, and more work, to get money and have the ideal family! It was not always like this. So, I believe the problem is money itself- the very foundations of modern society.

I mean now the entire foundations of this earth, for the most part, are based around money. Take the Native Americans for example, they had not money, and they were a very spiritual people and culture. They had smarts not of math, writing, history as it is taught today, etc. and were far smarter, imo. They had smarts we do not have- they understood the earth and would not harm it as modern society has done- that is one of the ultimate smarts. This is what I meant by saying you could have all the knowledge in the world, though not be a genius. Because, the individual person has to know how to use the knowledge properly and truly.

Speaking of the Native Americans, they were a very spiritual race, at least the majority. They lived with no money, no huge industrial and manufacturing plants, etc. and were for the most part in harmony with one another and the divine- unbelievable!!! That is something to be proud of. Then, the very foundations of modern society- money, industrialism, "education", laws, taxes, POLITICS, etc.- came from England, and those are not the only things that came. What else was a massacre! There were around 250,000,000, yes 250 MILLION, Native Americans that inhabited what is now called America, and the large majority of them were brutally murdered- genocide.

I bring that up because, imo, the problem with this world are the things I mentioned above- money, politics, etc. It is similar to what Beethoven quoted from Schiller in choral of the 9th- we need to all live together as brothers and sisters- which the Native Americans had achieved, to a great degree.

Modern times- are quite insane, imo. There is no care for nature, there is no harmony that should be, etc. There is work, work, and more work, all to get money.

There is very little true culture left. It has all been demolished because of greed and corruption.

[Bonn1827]

Preston, you need to do a bit of reading. First, I would start with Jean Jacques Rousseau, the French philosopher. He had this grand idea that people were born as "noble" savages, corrupted by the system. In fact, I suggest that Marx would never have written his (naive) Das Kapital if he hadn't first read Rousseau. His blinding naivete could only have come from reading this Frenchman's philosophies!! But, you should also then read Orwell's "Animal Farm", which highlights the dangers of a utopian society - which is what is really implied by your critique of the modern world. After that Tofler's "Future Shock", to see what our young people have had to deal with in today's world. Perhaps Shakespeare's "The Tempest" might be a good idea too ("Oh Lord, what fools these mortals be").

Let me know when you're finished and I'll set you an essay question. Well, you can have it now:

"Men will always behave badly".
Discuss this statement in relation to the four/five texts set for study.

I don't need to read these to know I live in a "terrible/wonderful" world (binary opposition a la E.M. Forster, "A Passage to India"), and I absolutely love every single minute of my life.

[Preston]

"Men will always behave badly".

I agree, we always have and always will as a whole. And it is quite bad, and even more leads to terrifying consequences. As, I said in another thread:

"There is no true hope for humanity as a whole- and, there never has been."

To my mind, it is really a mind-blowing thing, that the Indians had managed to achieve a utopian society, to some degree: and a fairly high degree given the fact they, too, were human beings. That the Indians managed to achieve a somewhat utopian society, not based around politics, money, etc.- shows great wisdom and depth of thought, and spirituality.

My point is a simple point. That is, the problem with this world is the very things it is based around- governments, money, politics, etc. We have lost touch with all that is spiritual. There is very little true spirituality any more, imo. I mean humanity as a whole is destroying the very planet we inhabit! Now, that is beyond belief. I fear this will eventually spread to other solar systems within this galaxy, and perhaps beyond. Similar, to the movie Avatar.

[Preston]

But, you should also then read Orwell's "Animal Farm", which highlights the dangers of a utopian society - which is what is really implied by your critique of the modern world.

What about the dangers of modern society? They seem far worse to me than the dangers of a utopian society. I mean in modern society, you name the horror and you have pretty much got it, in some form.

And what about all the waste in mainstream media that is out today? This kills children's minds, and shapes them into the wretched and corrupt adults they become.

In this day and age, I am convinced there is more evil than good. Now, that may change with time.

I, believe a utopian society will never happen amongst human beings. Perhaps, on other planets some form of a utopia has been achieved. You talk as though there is something wrong if a utopia could be achieved? Either way, utopia cannot be achieved amongst humans. We are simply not fair enough.

Though, I would be most interested to see into the future when technology allows the travel of space, to see what types of society exist on other planets. Yes, it would be different for each one, though it would be fascinating.

[Bonn1827]

Whatever. I see you did not notice my tongue discreetly protruding from the side of my cheek!

[Peter]

Further evidence of my points in regard specifically to the UK. British universities have failed to make the top five in a new global league table, with the US accounting for 72 of the world's 200 best universities. The Times Higher Education magazine's table, based on a number of criteria, including teaching, research and staff and student mix, has Harvard top. Only five British institutions are ranked among the top 50, with Cambridge and Oxford in joint sixth place.

This despite the fact that it is claimed here that teaching standards are higher than ever with more pupils achieving A grades than ever before and more people going to university than ever before. We are told we are the envy of the world! The reality is that a whole generation are being deceived into debt, pointless degrees and few job prospects at the end of it all.

[Quijote]

Further evidence of my points in regard specifically to the UK. British universities have failed to make the top five in a new global league table, with the US accounting for 72 of the world's 200 best universities. The Times Higher Education magazine's table, based on a number of criteria, including teaching, research and staff and student mix, has Harvard top. Only five British institutions are ranked among the top 50, with Cambridge and Oxford in joint sixth place.

This despite the fact that it is claimed here that teaching standards are higher than ever with more pupils achieving A grades than ever before and more people going to university than ever before. We are told we are the envy of the world! The reality is that a whole generation are being deceived into debt, pointless degrees and few job prospects at the end of it all.

Two points I would like to make :
a) I recently read (last week) that Cambridge was in first position (worldwide), though I will have to double check that;
b) What is your definition of a "pointless degree"? A degree can be viewed in two ways, I believe : (i) as training prior to a job; (ii) as intellectual training in a general sense. I know that some of my former colleague music students have gone on to pursue successful (and well paid) careers in fields other than music. Their music degree gave them skills such as critical thinking, analytical approaches and so on. Such competences are sought after by employers.

[Peter]

Two points I would like to make :
a) I recently read (last week) that Cambridge was in first position (worldwide), though I will have to double check that;
b) What is your definition of a "pointless degree"? A degree can be viewed in two ways, I believe : (i) as training prior to a job; (ii) as intellectual training in a general sense. I know that some of my former colleague music students have gone on to pursue successful (and well paid) careers in fields other than music. Their music degree gave them skills such as critical thinking, analytical approaches and so on. Such competences are sought after by employers.

In response to first point - various rankings co-exist, but the one I quoted from has new more respected criteria which isn't solely based on the prestige of a place. Point 2 - how about degrees in the following for example - Surfing Studies, Woman's Studies, David Beckham studies, Outdoor Adventure. Do you mean to tell me that it is better for a student of one of these to incur £30,000 debt rather than simply get a job and start earning and contributing to society?

The result is a worsening UK skill shortage in the work force which includes civil engineers, physicists, geologists, chemical engineers, medical practitioners, NOT David Beckham specialists!!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...ortage-worsens

[Quijote]

Your Point 1 above : I must check.
Your Point 2 above : Is a degree in English worth anything? Will every undergraduate studying for a BA (or an MA or PhD) in English go on to become a writer or teacher? Will every student studying "Surfing" go on to be a surfer? Will every student studying music (Uni or conservatoire) go on to be a musician, composer, critic, teacher? No. What counts is the rigour of the course : training the mind.