Education, Standards and Culture

[Quijote]

And in training the mind, one creates members of society who can contribute economically and culturally.

[Quijote]

Almost a Marxist argument.

[Peter]

And in training the mind, one creates members of society who can contribute economically and culturally.

It depends what and how you are training the mind. Look at the results of this rather than the ideology - we have a worsening skills shortage.

[Quijote]

It depends what and how you are training the mind. Look at the results of this rather than the ideology - we have a worsening skills shortage.

Sorry Peter, I must question your syntax : "It depends what [...] you are training the mind." [sic]. What does this mean? Are there missing prepositions ("on" and "for", perhaps), or have you been on the Bordeaux / claret again? This is (in a small way) what I mean by "rigour" (though the deluded and weak-minded call it "pedantry"; my degrees are in Music by the way, not English).
Let us take "Surfing" as a case in point in terms of University degrees. At Strasbourg University they do indeed offer degrees in "Sports Studies". You mock such subjects, but of course their first function is to train would-be sports teachers at secondary level. But not every graduate will go on to become a sports teacher. What may they do instead? Who knows? But at least they will have studied the "history" of sport, its "politics" (including pre-and post Nazi body culture), its "economics", its "social function", its geographic particularities and a whole host of related topics.
OK, I agree (at first view) that degrees in "Beckham Studies" strike us as ridiculous. Do you know exactly what the syllabus is? No, you probably don't, and nor do I. But using my imagination, I can envisage that such a degree will incorporate sociology, semiotics (not an easy subject, I can tell you, especially as it relates to music and signification), media, gender issues and so on. Phew! So it's not just about Beckham, then? No, no more than a degree in music implies playing a medley of favourite tunes during a drunken party on a Bechstein.
You are calling (as is Preston) for an educational Utopia. I state clearly to you (and others) that I am diametrically opposed to Utopianism in any form whatsoever, as it is, by deduction if not definition, a form of totalitarianism.

[susanwen]

I am in favor of as much education as a student is willing and able to absorb. There was an article in today's "Washington Post" newspaper that described research which indicated that higher levels of education in women lead to improved mortality rates in their babies. This is partly because better educated women are more knoweldgeable about sanitation, innoculations, and health measures, partly because better education is generally linked with higher income levels which provide better health opportunities, and probably partly because of other factors not yet identified. I believe in multiple causality. There are usually several reasons for any correlation. Nonetheless, I think the whole world is better off with better educated people.

- Susan

[Preston]

You are calling (as is Preston) for an educational Utopia. I state clearly to you (and others) that I am diametrically opposed to Utopianism in any form whatsoever, as it is, by deduction if not definition, a form of totalitarianism.

As I understand it, a utopia- in its fullest- is a form of peace and equality among all of humanity. Similar, to what the Native Americans achieved. Though, a wholly Utopian society could never happen, as many have said- because, there is simply too much greed and corruption. So, what would be wrong with utopia, if all peoples could live in peace and harmony? That would be the most glorious day the earth has ever seen!

Either way, whatever you consider utopia to be- modern society, imo, is a sickening form of a plague-like disintegration. People who are supportive of modern society lack true spiritual vision, imo. Instead of fearing utopia, I would fear the complete and total insanity of "modern times".

Not much matters, to me, in this godless plague we call life. Only, a handful of things do. Depressing, I know.

Also, again, yes you have math and science, though- what happened to the teachings of spirituality!!! That there is such little spirituality is one of the fundamental and key problems with this world. Yet, an interesting thing is I could ask a murdering slut if she felt she was spiritual- her answer would probably be yes. My point is, so many consider themselves spiritual and are anything but. And no, I do not consider myself to be spiritual.

ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL- that is the key.

Also, to quote Bonn, "OH Lord, what fools these mortals be!!!"- all too true. Though, many so much more foolish than others.

[Peter]

Sorry Peter, I must question your syntax : "It depends what [...] you are training the mind." [sic]. What does this mean? Are there missing prepositions ("on" and "for", perhaps), or have you been on the Bordeaux / claret again? This is (in a small way) what I mean by "rigour" (though the deluded and weak-minded call it "pedantry"; my degrees are in Music by the way, not English).
Let us take "Surfing" as a case in point in terms of University degrees. At Strasbourg University they do indeed offer degrees in "Sports Studies". You mock such subjects, but of course their first function is to train would-be sports teachers at secondary level. But not every graduate will go on to become a sports teacher. What may they do instead? Who knows? But at least they will have studied the "history" of sport, its "politics" (including pre-and post Nazi body culture), its "economics", its "social function", its geographic particularities and a whole host of related topics.
OK, I agree (at first view) that degrees in "Beckham Studies" strike us as ridiculous. Do you know exactly what the syllabus is? No, you probably don't, and nor do I. But using my imagination, I can envisage that such a degree will incorporate sociology, semiotics (not an easy subject, I can tell you, especially as it relates to music and signification), media, gender issues and so on. Phew! So it's not just about Beckham, then? No, no more than a degree in music implies playing a medley of favourite tunes during a drunken party on a Bechstein.
You are calling (as is Preston) for an educational Utopia. I state clearly to you (and others) that I am diametrically opposed to Utopianism in any form whatsoever, as it is, by deduction if not definition, a form of totalitarianism.

No Philip I leave the Bordeaux to you! You seem content to ignore the reality and as I have said we are suffering a worsening of skill shortages in the UK. Whilst you give equal credence to degrees in Beckham and Chemical engineering, the Chinese are romping ahead with science and technology and will leave the west standing in a few decades looking through their blurry glasses wondering where it all went wrong.

[Peter]

I see your post has vanished Philip, but I meant to deal with your utopian accusation - actually it is far from what I'm advocating and it seems to me more in line with your own position. The Guardian has some excellent articles on this topic and here is another with which I entirely agree. http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...helped-economy

[Bonn1827]

Some final thoughts of mine on this education discussion: I don't think universities and societies give "equal weight" to degrees such as Beckham Studies and Chemical Engineering. Students who study the former are not robbing the faculties of the latter. There will always be fewer students for the more demanding courses, and that is as it should be. In Australia we have degrees in Tourism and Events Management. The nature of occupational health and safety, just to cite one example, and our increasingly litigious society means that the realm of peripheral issues within each discipline is growing wider, hence the need for a "degree" type qualification. Theoretical underpinnings of education, for example, I found tedious and a time-waste when I studied my post graduate teaching qualifications. These did not tell me how to discipline students in the classroom (since I believe no lecturer really knew how to do this anyway!!). So, one could argue that the so-called "softer" options for degrees had infiltrated education itself and did so quite a long time ago. Perhaps this is all a consequence of there being just too many sociologists. (Just when one is never enough..!!!) Time was when everybody wanted to be an Economist and it was "standing room only ladies and gentlemen" in the lecture hall. Same for "information technology". Many ended up working at McDonalds!!

I don't think China will have the "last laugh" necessarily, as you suggest. Somebody has to actually BUY what they produce and fundamentally understand that an economic system is every bit as fragile as a natural eco-system, of interdependence and delicate balances - particularly in a globalized world. The symbiotic relationship between buyer and seller, manufacturer and raw resources supplier provides a gravitational momentum which won't only be influenced by who has the better educational system. No good having the Chinese equivalent of Harvard graduates who count beans (the "feral abacus" once referred to by one of our PMs) but ultimately can't sell any of them.

And, more controversially perhaps, the problems in the UK are far greater than whether or not the educational system is on the decline. We've been debating this in our home with various visitors for the last while. This happened today and is the reason for this my post! My father-in-law was a retired British civil servant who worked in the colonies and was paid a handsome pension until he died at 86, having seldom set foot in the UK. I remember thinking that this couldn't be the hallmark of a society which was progressing and expanding - paying vast pensions out to the colonies for nil return. But that's another topic for another day.

[Peter]

The point is we have ever decreasing numbers here taking the weightier traditional academic subjects such as chemical engineering in favour of the unnecessary. The result is that these people end up not with better paid jobs but with a huge debt round their necks - what sort of policy is that?

Here is the last paragraph of the Guardian article:

"The scramble for degrees resembles the audience at a theatre standing up: as each row stands up, those behind them have to get up on their hind legs too – so that no one can see the play any better but everyone is a lot more uncomfortable. That metaphor comes from the Cambridge economist Ha-Joon Chang who, in his new book 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism, points out that plenty of economies have prospered without forcing their young into university. Up until the mid-90s, Switzerland – one of the richest and most industrialised nations in the world – sent only 10-15% of students off to get a degree. But it made sure the others had apprenticeships with actual businesses and vocational training. There must, surely, be a lesson in that."

[Bonn1827]

I agree very broadly, in principal, with this man's argument. HOWEVER, are we saying that education has a purely utilitarian function or that something of value can actually be gained simply by studying at a higher level? That not all things acquire a "dollar" value. I do think his argument is primarily about international competitiveness and not necessarily about the philosophy behind educational goals for the "aspirational" classes. I think education particularly relevant in your society in light of its traditional "class" system. The irony hasn't been lost on me, however, that, in a sense educating everybody has meant those hierarchies have simply been further entrenched - just in a different way. It's been good having this discussion. And now I must return to my German lessons, and try to resist the lure of the BRS and its many colourful "characters"!

[Preston]

But, you should also then read Orwell's "Animal Farm", which highlights the dangers of a utopian society...

You do know Orwell was a socialist- a Democratic Socialist, to be precise?

...which is what is really implied by your critique of the modern world...

As I have said, I know that a utopian society will never be achieved on Earth. However, it seems Peter and I are the only ones who understand how sick and mad modern society actually is- or humanity for that matter.

I bet you, one day, years upon years from now, the people who are still living- if there are any- will look back on us (our generation) and say- what animals they were to destory our entire planet, how could they be so uncaring towards their fellow man, how could they share nothing worthy with their fellow man, all they cared about was their own self, etc.- the list goes on.

It reminds me of what a lot of people say about Beethoven's 9th, "that we must become brothers and sisters". Meaning we must put aside everything and care about one another as much as we care for ourselves. This, too will never happen, either, in my opinion.

All for one and one for all.

[Peter]

You do know Orwell was a socialist- a Democratic Socialist, to be precise?

As I have said, I know that a utopian society will never be achieved on Earth. However, it seems Peter and I are the only ones who understand how sick and mad modern society actually is- or humanity for that matter.

I bet you, one day, years upon years from now, the people who are still living- if there are any- will look back on us (our generation) and say- what animals they were to destory our entire planet, how could they be so uncaring towards their fellow man, how could they share nothing worthy with their fellow man, all they cared about was their own self, etc.- the list goes on.

It reminds me of what a lot of people say about Beethoven's 9th, "that we must become brothers and sisters". Meaning we must put aside everything and care about one another as much as we care for ourselves. This, too will never happen, either, in my opinion.

All for one and one for all.

It would be nice to be able to accuse you of being too cynical and pessimistic, however I'm afraid you are spot on. No better example is needed of the truth of your remarks than the upcoming Delhi games upon which billions have been spent. Billions that could have helped the millions of desperately poor has been sidetracked to host this obscenity which will meet with accolades and praise around the world. The poor will be hidden away and forgotten whilst the media glory in the athletes and the obscene money they earn.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/michael...nomic-disaster

[Preston]

It would be nice to be able to accuse you of being too cynical and pessimistic, however I'm afraid you are spot on. No better example is needed of the truth of your remarks than the upcoming Delhi games upon which billions have been spent. Billions that could have helped the millions of desperately poor has been sidetracked to host this obscenity which will meet with accolades and praise around the world. The poor will be hidden away and forgotten whilst the media glory in the athletes and the obscene money they earn.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/michael...nomic-disaster

It would be a day of rejoice if I was being cynical and pessimistic about this subject (which I take as serious as I can). Yes, humanity is a truly depressing, devastating, etc. situation. And there seems to be no true peace in sight- ever- but surely something can be done to make it better, for the sake of humanity! It is really a disturbing subject.

I believe, a lot of people have gone daft- concerning the understanding that their fellow man are souls as them (and in general)- if they have even thought of their own soul- which many have not. Mind-blowing, that there is not the slightest care for spirituality, even in ones self!?

You are spot on, too, Peter. I often (as do so many) think about the exact same thing you have written about. Athletes here, in America, make more money than is imaginable, as do many other people, and share very little of it to the "desperately poor". The same thing can be said about the people in Hollywood, who claim they care so greatly for mankind- but in truth, care more for materialism!!!

The list of wasted money could go on for so long.

This is kind of what I have been trying to say about money and greed, corruption, etc. If only something could be done?

When a person climbs to the "top of the mountain" he will have stepped on others to get there.

[Peter]

It would be a day of rejoice if I was being cynical and pessimistic about this subject (which I take as serious as I can). Yes, humanity is a truly depressing, devastating, etc. situation. And there seems to be no true peace in sight- ever- but surely something can be done to make it better, for the sake of humanity! It is really a disturbing subject.

I believe, a lot of people have gone daft- concerning the understanding that their fellow man are souls as them (and in general)- if they have even thought of their own soul- which many have not. Mind-blowing, that there is not the slightest care for spirituality, even in ones self!?

You are spot on, too, Peter. I often (as do so many) think about the exact same thing you have written about. Athletes here, in America, make more money than is imaginable, as do many other people, and share very little of it to the "desperately poor". The same thing can be said about the people in Hollywood, who claim they care so greatly for mankind- but in truth, care more for materialism!!!

The list of wasted money could go on for so long.

This is kind of what I have been trying to say about money and greed, corruption, etc. If only something could be done?

But what can be done?? We have had too many examples of governments 'doing things' that resulted in the totalitarianism of Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. I'm afraid it is the Human condition and until those who feel content with tens of millions (billions) in their bank accounts whilst others starve change, those of us with a conscience about such things have to accept it. I've yet to hear a 'celebrity' (especially those who hypocritically preach on such issues) condemn the amount they and their associates earn and the adoring masses see nothing wrong in it either.