What are you reading now?

[Enrique]

Enrique raises perhaps one of the greatest lessons in politics as in life itself.
That is if you plan something you have to plan it all the way to the end.
In 415 BC the Athenians attacked Sicily.

I heard or read a remark exactly like that in the context of a famous XX century war the US held and it seemed to me sensible, making abstraction of the motives that led to the war. An opposite example was the Franco-Prussian War, promoted by Bismark. There was a very definite goal and the means were precisely calculated. Though perhaps he did no see the resentment of a French defeat would create powerful enemies for Germany forty years later.

[Peter]

Enrique raises perhaps one of the greatest lessons in politics as in life itself.
That is if you plan something you have to plan it all the way to the end.
In 415 BC the Athenians attacked Sicily.
All they saw was power, riches and glory.
They did not take into account how hard the Sicilians would fight, or how all Athens enemies would unite against them or that war would break out on several fronts totally overwhelming their own limited forces.
The expedition was a complete and utter disaster leading to the destruction of one of the greatest civilizations of all time.
They did this because they only looked in isolation at one thing, what they were going to get out of it, and they completely ignored the dangers looming in the distance.
I have to say that the parallels with the current war in Iraq are just uncanny.
As somebody once said, ''human intelligence has obvious limits, human stupidity none whatsoever.''

Well your average politician's historical knowledge is lamentable so there isn't much hope, especially as they don't teach context properly - an example is of a (bright) pupil of mine studying the suffragettes at GCSE level who thought this happened in the Elizabethan era, but mind you she had no idea when that was either! Indeed we're doomed to repeat past mistakes.

[RobertH]

Enrique raises perhaps one of the greatest lessons in politics as in life itself.
That is if you plan something you have to plan it all the way to the end.
In 415 BC the Athenians attacked Sicily.
All they saw was power, riches and glory.
They did not take into account how hard the Sicilians would fight, or how all Athens enemies would unite against them or that war would break out on several fronts totally overwhelming their own limited forces.
The expedition was a complete and utter disaster leading to the destruction of one of the greatest civilizations of all time.
They did this because they only looked in isolation at one thing, what they were going to get out of it, and they completely ignored the dangers looming in the distance.
I have to say that the parallels with the current war in Iraq are just uncanny.
As somebody once said, ''human intelligence has obvious limits, human stupidity none whatsoever.''

[Peter]

The Peloponnesian War, by Thucydides.

Having read this book in my youth, I wonder now how I had the patience to do it. It's so pityful to see how Athens was at times a little distance from winning the war. The disastrous expedition to Sicily, where the Athenians lost 50000 men and the stupid removal of Alcibiades from its command. The unbelievable absurdities made by the Athenian democracy. I do not think Sparta would have won were it not for the Persian gold. This war parallels the World Wars in many respects, including psycological warfare. Grave problems of decay in many fields could be observed in Greece after it ended, and she never more was what it once was.

I have a more modern version by Donald Kagan - yes isn't it amazing how the follies of the past are so easily forgotten? You're right about the parallels with the world wars - the 30 years war was another foretaste of the disastrous first half of the 20th century - will we ever learn?

[Enrique]

The Peloponnesian War, by Thucydides.

Having read this book in my youth, I wonder now how I had the patience to do it. It's so pityful to see how Athens was at times a little distance from winning the war. The disastrous expedition to Sicily, where the Athenians lost 50000 men and the stupid removal of Alcibiades from its command. The unbelievable absurdities made by the Athenian democracy. I do not think Sparta would have won were it not for the Persian gold. This war parallels the World Wars in many respects, including psycological warfare. Grave problems of decay in many fields could be observed in Greece after it ended, and she never more was what it once was.

[Enrique]

Again it would sound rather formal - Quijote's response is the most natural. He could have said 'I did as well'.

Oh, 'I did as well' too. Fine. Thank you Peter.

[Peter]

Alright. Also, it occurs to me that another answer could be 'so did I have', which is one step from 'so did I', omiting 'have'.

Again it would sound rather formal - Quijote's response is the most natural. He could have said 'I did as well'.

[Enrique]

Alright. Also, it occurs to me that another answer could be 'so did I have', which is one step from 'so did I', omiting 'have'.

[Peter]

A different thread would be in order, I know. But is Quijote's, in this case, correct English? I say: he had a dissolute youth. And he replies: So did I. Now, I used the verb to have. Shouldn't he reply "So had I"?

'So did I' is fine - 'so had I' would be very stiff and formal.

[Enrique]

[In reply to this: " [...] St. Augustine [...] I understand he had a dissolute youth":
So did I !!! But I never had the brains. Damn.

A different thread would be in order, I know. But is Quijote's, in this case, correct English? I say: he had a dissolute youth. And he replies: So did I. Now, I used the verb to have. Shouldn't he reply "So had I"?

[RobertH]

I like the story about the woman who went up to the minister after his sermon and said, ''I never knew what sin was until I heard you.''
The old jokes are always the best.

[Enrique]

For anyone worrying about his not being chaste or pure, remember Lutero's words: sin strongly (of course, this should be put into context).

[Quijote]

[...] St. Augustine [...] I understand he had a dissolute youth.

So did I !!! But I never had the brains. Damn.

[Peter]

There was a quote, but I'm not sure if it was from St. Augustine or from someone else that went something like, "Lord, make me clean, but not yet." Anyone familiar with this one?

Yes he laments that in his confessions, 'Lord make me chaste, but not yet!'

[Sorrano]

There was a quote, but I'm not sure if it was from St. Augustine or from someone else that went something like, "Lord, make me clean, but not yet." Anyone familiar with this one?