Stop and prepare : Cage

[PDG]

And now to draw our attention to the the Hellewell and Harris postings from our cherished administrator, Peter (still a chilling term, even though he never chose the mantle). My 'Insane-elder-brother-in-the-attic-PDG' would love the sheer alliterative 'Beano'-ness of that binary, I'm sure.

I do.

[Quijote]

[...] Several posters have said they do not feel qualified to discuss this topic - perhaps you can explain why they should feel that way?

Perhaps because they simply do not know the music.

[Quijote]

And now for 'alienation' : Peter (via Hellewell) raises something undeniable; ergo, many listeners feel alienated by contemporary art music (in genres that employ atonality, total serialism, electroacoustic approaches and so on). Before I address that, let it not be forgotten that there has been healthy compositional activity that continues to use the 'vernacular' (read: 'melodic'), as exemplified by the works of Reich, Glass, Gorecki, Pärt, Tavener et al. There is also a certain irony here, as the so-called hard-core serialist Stockhausen in his last years also 'relented' to a certain diatonic approach. But a word of caution : diatonic composers such as Pärt have nothing in common with the ridiculous neo-romanticism of composers from the Hellewell stable (see postings above). Furthermore, I would posit that many lovers of 'classical' music experience a certain alienation when listening to music from earlier periods such as Palestrina, Machaut, Ockeghem or Josquin des Prez. Listening to such music divorced from its original contexts, to transport it, bodily, to the concert hall (or CD player) strikes me as very alienating. But I have not yet answered Peter's question. This must be the 'politician' in me. Take it as way of preamble to a later posting.

[Quijote]

Sir, I bow upon you

Muchas gracias, Atserriotserri. But as Beethoven was reputed to have said when offered the choice between an 'honorary' or money, he opted for the cash. As I always do.

[Quijote]

True, but the example is not an oxymoron. 'Bittersweet' would be such an example...

I bow, once again, to your correction, Insane Elder Brother.

[PDG]

Your voluptuous German home help, tucking me in each night, provides great comfort....

[Quijote]

Talking of alienation (that is, the alienation many young people feel regarding classical music), a recent article for your perusal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009...music-children

I allow myself to quote the following paragraph from it. Enjoy.

"Ironically, it's the supposedly "difficult" new music of Luigi Nono, Karlheinz Stockhausen and Iannis Xenakis that is now pulling in younger people: the BBC Symphony Orchestra had its biggest crowd of the season for last month's concerts of Xenakis's thrilling, elemental music at the Barbican in London. A younger audience of contemporary culture aficionados - engaged by the connections between the musical avant garde and pop, film, art, and architecture - is willing to experiment with new music. Far from blue rinses or an over-privileged elite, this is the kind of trendy, youthful crowd you would also find at an experimental electronica gig or performance-art happening. Meanwhile, audiences for the core classical and romantic repertoires just keep getting older."

Very refreshing.

[Peter]

Talking of alienation (that is, the alienation many young people feel regarding classical music), a recent article for your perusal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009...music-children

I allow myself to quote the following paragraph from it. Enjoy.

"Ironically, it's the supposedly "difficult" new music of Luigi Nono, Karlheinz Stockhausen and Iannis Xenakis that is now pulling in younger people: the BBC Symphony Orchestra had its biggest crowd of the season for last month's concerts of Xenakis's thrilling, elemental music at the Barbican in London. A younger audience of contemporary culture aficionados - engaged by the connections between the musical avant garde and pop, film, art, and architecture - is willing to experiment with new music. Far from blue rinses or an over-privileged elite, this is the kind of trendy, youthful crowd you would also find at an experimental electronica gig or performance-art happening. Meanwhile, audiences for the core classical and romantic repertoires just keep getting older."

Very refreshing.

There is nothing 'refreshing' in a diminishing audience for Beethoven or Bach in my opinion.

[Quijote]

There is nothing 'refreshing' in a diminishing audience for Beethoven or Bach in my opinion.

I meant it was refreshing that many young people are open to more recent contemporary music. I agree completely that diminishing audiences for Beethoven or Bach (and the standard classical / romantic repertoire) is something to be lamented. But lamenting is defeatist; something needs to be done. HIP (and mainstream performance influenced by that movement) offers hope. Taruskin (and other writers since the early 1990s) advocates a return to the 'pop' values in place prior to (and including) Mozart's time. We need to 'demystify' the cult status surrounding these masters, to focus on the 'act' (making music, or "doing") and not the 'text' (the slavish Werktreue principle that we have all inherited from the early Romantic movement). We need to 'defamiliarise' these works, to make them fresh again. It is a massive project.
I am a new music advocate. I also firmly believe that the older masters continue to speak to us. There is a block in that message getting across. Writing 'symphonies' in some sort of pastiche renaissance is not the solution.

[Quijote]

Talking of the 'project', I have already started. Last year I gave a course to undergraduates here in Strasbourg, where we focused the entire term on Beethoven's 'Eroica' symphony (mainstream and HIP). What I found shocking was a singular lack of knowledge of the classical repertoire amongst music students, no less! Still, several students wrote to me after the course to thank me for having exposed them to this work, and for making it far less 'stuffy' than they had anticipated. The road ahead is long ...

[Quijote]

Talking of 'pastiche' and composers from the Hellewell stable (see above), I was wondering something : forum members here are clearly cultivated and intelligent; this is clear (and no irony). Forum members probably enjoy the great classics such as Dickens, Hardy, Austen (and our non anglophone posters who enjoy Calderon, Cervantes, Tolstoy and so on ...). Well, my question is this : would you purchase a novel written today that was in "the style of" Dickens? Would you think that an 'authentic' work?

[Peter]

Talking of alienation (that is, the alienation many young people feel regarding classical music), a recent article for your perusal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009...music-children

I allow myself to quote the following paragraph from it. Enjoy.

"Ironically, it's the supposedly "difficult" new music of Luigi Nono, Karlheinz Stockhausen and Iannis Xenakis that is now pulling in younger people: the BBC Symphony Orchestra had its biggest crowd of the season for last month's concerts of Xenakis's thrilling, elemental music at the Barbican in London. A younger audience of contemporary culture aficionados - engaged by the connections between the musical avant garde and pop, film, art, and architecture - is willing to experiment with new music. Far from blue rinses or an over-privileged elite, this is the kind of trendy, youthful crowd you would also find at an experimental electronica gig or performance-art happening. Meanwhile, audiences for the core classical and romantic repertoires just keep getting older."

Very refreshing.

Interesting to see how that translates into cd sales.

[Peter]

Writing 'symphonies' in some sort of pastiche renaissance is not the solution.

What do you think of works such as Gorecki's 3rd symphony?
Do you share the view of the avant-gardist critics such as Dietmar Polaczek (writing for Österreichische Musikzeitschrift), "simply adding to the decadent trash that encircled the true pinnacles of avant-gardism".

[PDG]

Talking of 'pastiche' and composers from the Hellewell stable (see above), I was wondering something ......Well, my question is this : would you purchase a novel written today that was in "the style of" Dickens? Would you think that an 'authentic' work?

No and No (I was actually born less than half a mile from Dickens, but that's neither here nor there; in fact it's just over there).

[atserriotserri]

Perhaps because they simply do not know the music.

I agree in many aspects with you but in this point.

Sorry in advance because perhaps this post may be perceived as not documented but it tries to describe my personal approach and perception (and I've been awaken for 16 hours, so don't expect much from me

I'm one of the posters who have said that I don't participate in this discussion. In my case this is not the only topic in which I act as a simple reader of others' opinions; there are other discussions in which I don't participate because I feel I would not add much or because I'm at work and I can read but it's better not to spend much time writing.

On this particular discussion, certainly there's some composers whose music I haven't listened and some artistic movements of which I don't have a deep knowledge, but the problem is that usually when one show dislike regarding some modern-avant-garde-contemporary-etc... music there is a reference to that "ideological" element beyond the strictly "aesthetical" element. And if we are talking about music, if you don't like what you listen, that's it, at least in the particular moment you are listening to that music.

I move in what we could qualify a peculiar balance point betweent the opposite views portayed by you and Peter. I am very curious and I am exploring different styles, movements, composers... but that does not exclude a certain level of irony in some cases. Perhaps I could summarize it saying that many times I would agree with Peter notwithstanding the fact that I'm expanding my interests.

Now it will seem that I'm not english-fluent: There is music I don't "like", sounds "bad" or that leaves me "cold", indifferent or confused beacuse I don't understand and therefore don't see the point, but there is music that... it's not that I don't "like", but does not sound "particularly friendly" to me, (hope you understand what I mean) that make me feel curious and keep exploring, relistening, etc... And then I expect for the moment when I'll get the point, I'll be in the mood or I'll discover some piece I like and it has happened. And it happens when I'm alone, because if my girlfriend is at home, depending on the piece, it's a question of minutes or even seconds to hear that lovely voice saying "could you change this music PLEEEEEEEEASE"

Despite the abovementioned, in strict confidence, some friends have laughed very loud listening to my descriptions of some music (irony, sarcasm, funny, call it as you want). Perhaps now, having read this, if some day I make some more or less ironic remark about a piece/composer you'll put my words in context, but I remember when Sorrano replied to me that Ligeti's Lux Aeterna was one of his preferred pieces when I said before "I also ran like hell from Gyorgy Ligeti's Requiem for soprano, mezzosoprano, 2 choirs and orchestra. When I listen to music like that my first question is: Why?".

Now I love his musica ricercata, some other piano pieces, among others... but that does not exclude that I still may make some comments about some music or composer that, if you don't know me a little bit and possibily if you're not in front of me with a pint of beer seeing me smile, would definitely upset some.

My main ingredients are curiosity, patience, research, time, interest... and humor.