Stop and prepare : Cage

[PDG]

Did you enjoy your dinner, Phil?

[Peter]

To sum up, Peter's 'discomfort' with contemporary art music (and electroacoustic music in particular) is best summed up on his behalf by the Helewell article mentioned (and dissected) above. I have written why I personally find it a shoddy and poorly thought-through article. It is now up to other forum members to make their own judgements and make further comments to help develop this debate.

Thank you for clarifying my position in this last paragraph at least - I am not referring to contemporary music or art in my criticisms (nor I believe was Hellewell who throughout refers to the 'avant-garde' not contemporary) but specifically to the electroacoustic and more experimental line of work from Cage, Stockhausen through to Dennis Smalley.

You are willfully misrepresenting what was said with comments such as "He goes on to say that contemporary composers have 'problems' with past masterpieces, which are both profound and popular" - he doesn't say that at all. He says the avant-garde and he is referring specifically to composers such as Cage and Stockhausen who both expressed their contempt for the past and its music. Nor did he term composers such as Arvo Pärt, John Adams, Steve Reich, Philip Glass, Gorecki as 'elitist and exclusive' - he is referring to Boulez, Cage and Stockhausen.

I would actually be far more interested in your reactions to Pierre Schaeffer's comments and his rather startling conclusions coming as they do from a pioneer in the field. Do you also regard him as a 'luddite' or perhaps a lapsed electroacoustic?

[Quijote]

Did you enjoy your dinner, Phil?

I did, thank you! Even the likes of Hellewell can never put me off my gastronomic creations.

[Quijote]

Thank you for clarifying my position in this last paragraph at least - I am not referring to contemporary music or art in my criticisms (nor I believe was Hellewell who throughout refers to the 'avant-garde' not contemporary) but specifically to the electroacoustic and more experimental line of work from Cage, Stockhausen through to Dennis Smalley.

You are willfully misrepresenting what was said with comments such as "He goes on to say that contemporary composers have 'problems' with past masterpieces, which are both profound and popular" - he doesn't say that at all. He says the avant-garde and he is referring specifically to composers such as Cage and Stockhausen who both expressed their contempt for the past and its music. Nor did he term composers such as Arvo Pärt, John Adams, Steve Reich, Philip Glass, Gorecki as 'elitist and exclusive' - he is referring to Boulez, Cage and Stockhausen.

I would actually be far more interested in your reactions to Pierre Schaeffer's comments and his rather startling conclusions coming as they do from a pioneer in the field. Do you also regard him as a 'luddite' or perhaps a lapsed electroacoustic?

I have already adequately dealt with Hellewell's article. Next on my chopping block is your lengthy posting on Pierre Schaeffer. I will deal with that next before I reply to your question above. That said, please do not expect any postings from me on this specific thread anytime soon, as I am off to Germany (Mannheim) for a few days.

[PDG]

I did, thank you! Even the likes of Hellewell can never put me off my gastronomic creations.

Good. I had fish and chips...

[Quijote]

Good. I had fish and chips...

Splendid. Have you ever tried dog? I have (see the thread "My dog likes listening to..."). But not dog and chips. Just dog, with a glass of Tsingtao Chinese beer. Lovely.
I will deal with Peter's Pierre Schaeffer article later, when I get a moment.

[Quijote]

Actually, there was one other point I forgot to mention concerning "Heckler Hellewell" : I understand his ensemble once commissioned a work by Jonathan Harvey (contemporary composer, and often invited to work at IRCAM). For an interesting article on Harvey, please check out the following link :

http://www.theherald.co.uk/search/di...l_language.php

[atserriotserri]

Just a couple of things: (1) To mention that I have been following with interest your discussion but I don't feel qualified to participate actively but learning quite much, and (2) to ask... Who and why would pay to download Cage's 4:33 on iTunes (where it's offered)? To avoid the surface noise from an older recording ?

[Michael]

Just a couple of things: (1) To mention that I have been following with interest your discussion but I don't feel qualified to participate actively but learning quite much, and (2) to ask... Who and why would pay to download Cage's 4:33 on iTunes (where it's offered)? To avoid the surface noise from an older recording ?

I have this piece on my iPod. I often put it on repeat when I want to get to sleep. Just like the Irishman's video recorder: it records the programmes he doesn't like and plays them back while he is out.

[Quijote]

Just a couple of things: (1) To mention that I have been following with interest your discussion but I don't feel qualified to participate actively but learning quite much, and (2) to ask... Who and why would pay to download Cage's 4:33 on iTunes (where it's offered)? To avoid the surface noise from an older recording ?

Well, I downloaded the piece as a ring tone for my mobile 'phone. Fiends often ask me why I never answer!

[atserriotserri]

I wonder if I could make some euros transcribing this piece for guitar, perhaps violin, or even cello, triangle, bagpipe, vibraphone, or harp... or even dare to arrange it for several different chamber ensembles before facing its orchestration...
I should not have bought that Monty Python's Flying Circus DVDs...

[Michael]

On a more serious note (and this may have been mentioned earlier) didn't Cage want us to listen to the ambient sounds of the auditorium when this piece was performed live? Obviously, this would differ with each performance and a recording would remove the random element. A modern digital recording of the "work" would have no background noise at all and, maybe, defeat its whole purpose.

[Peter]

Just a couple of things: (1) To mention that I have been following with interest your discussion but I don't feel qualified to participate actively but learning quite much, and (2) to ask... Who and why would pay to download Cage's 4:33 on iTunes (where it's offered)? To avoid the surface noise from an older recording ?

But you are qualified - all that's needed is a pair of functioning ears and a brain! You don't need to be a musician or conservatoire graduate to have an opinion on Beethoven's music, so why that of composers such as Cage? Several posters here have commented that they are not qualified to discuss this topic and the blame for this lies with movements such as the electroacoustic avant garde in creating a clique dedicated to alienating the public which it so disdains. As Hellewell says in his article a cacophony is a cacaophony and needs no further explanation - the deceit lies in making you believe you are inadequate if you don't get it.

[Preston]

Good points Peter. I have been listening to Cage's music on You Tube and have only found pieces, basically consisting of different notes here and there. So what I was wondering is did Cage ever write anything more complex? If so could someone point me to a piece of music that isn't just notes and things of that nature.

Perhaps, the problem with Cage, is that he seems prude and tried to make something out of things that have been mastered throughout 1000s of years, and therefore he seems, to some of society, to be some kind of genius?

[Quijote]

I wonder if I could make some euros transcribing this piece for guitar, perhaps violin, or even cello, triangle, bagpipe, vibraphone, or harp...

I did once perform this piece for 'cello (without the composer's express written consent), and it went down very well. This was during a lecture on contemporary and electroacoustic music to an audience mainly composed of art students. I made a few euros.