Stop and prepare : Cage

[Peter]

And now to draw our attention to the the Hellewell and Harris postings from our cherished administrator, Peter (still a chilling term, even though he never chose the mantle). My 'Insane-elder-brother-in-the-attic-PDG' would love the sheer alliterative 'Beano'-ness of that binary, I'm sure. Fun over, let's get down to some serious debunking and calling a "cat a cat" (in UK English, that translates as calling "a spade a spade").

Where to start? Well, let us begin with sources, and general intellectual/academic credibility. Would you, Peter, like to tell us the source of the Hellewell article you mention? Or in very simple terms : Who is David Hellewell, and why should we give credence to his views (apart from the fact that he concurs with you, or vice-versa)?

I shall start to "dismantle" the article you have cited (with much evident glee, it seems) later. And I think I should be paid for doing so.

DAVID HELLEWELL, born in Morley, Yorkshire, first made his name internationally as a composer, conductor and performer of avant-garde classical music in the 1970's. In 1969 he formed, as conductor and musical director, APOLLO CONTEMPORARY MUSIC, an ensemble of virtuoso players dedicated to the performance of new music. The ensemble gave many premiers and commissioned new works, with concerts at leading London venues, and in the provinces, and BBC broadcasts on Radio 3's "Music in our Time". He was chairman of the New Macnaghten Concerts (London), and has been a British Council "Visiting Specialist" (Composer) to Hungary. His avant garde work Metamusic for flute and piano, was chosen as the outstanding flute publication of 1976 by the American Flute Association.

I think Rolf Harris speaks for himself and has vastly more talent in one brushstroke than Emin could ever achieve with a warehouse of unmade beds.

Perhaps you might like to provide data on your general intellectual/academic credibility? Actually there is no point because I really couldn't care about the 'intellectual credibility' of people who either agree or disagree with me. We should should we not be able to make up our own minds about things? I notice in a response to Megan that you suggest she should read a certain book in order for her to understand the cacophony she dislikes - honestly it is this sort of patronising nonsense that I find more distasteful than the 'music' itself.

Dismantle the article all you like if it amuses you to do so but perhaps you would also like to comment on Emin's disdain for the great artists of the past and whether you concur with Cage's opinion that "Beethoven was in error, and his influence, which has been extensive as it is lamentable, has been deadening to the art of music."?

[Quijote]

I will return to Hellewell’s article later, though I will allow myself one quick comment about it, namely that it does seem to have a slightly fermenting whiff of 'sour grapes'. And now for the rest of your posting :

I think Rolf Harris speaks for himself and has vastly more talent in one brushstroke than Emin could ever achieve with a warehouse of unmade beds.

I can’t offer any comparative comments on the respective talents of Harris and Emin, but as far as I know Emin has never claimed to be a visual/pictorial artist. Maybe she can’t paint, but neither perhaps can sculptors. One must be careful how one defines “artist”.

Perhaps you might like to provide data on your general intellectual/academic credibility? Actually there is no point because I really couldn't care about the 'intellectual credibility' of people who either agree or disagree with me. We should should we not be able to make up our own minds about things? I notice in a response to Megan that you suggest she should read a certain book in order for her to understand the cacophony she dislikes - honestly it is this sort of patronising nonsense that I find more distasteful than the 'music' itself.

You know my intellectual/academic credentials : clever and superior, I believe your words were. Of course, we are free to make our own minds up. But minds can be changed, opened, even. To respond to your (original, now edited) Megan point, I criticised your posting the link because of its demagogic intent (see posting #22). I see no harm in suggesting further reading about the subject, and reject your claim that I was being patronising to Megan. It is sure that reading will not necessarily modify one’s dislike for such music, but it may well clarify our ‘expectations’ of the genre. To this end, another book I can recommend : The Language of Electroacoustic Music, Ed. Simon Emmerson, Macmillan Press, 1986.

Dismantle the article all you like if it amuses you to do so but perhaps you would also like to comment on Emin's disdain for the great artists of the past and whether you concur with Cage's opinion that "Beethoven was in error, and his influence, which has been extensive as it is lamentable, has been deadening to the art of music."?

I shall attempt a ‘dismantling’ of the article, later, as I have already said. You decided to cite it; and with evident glee. Therefore don’t complain if I find its content questionable. I’ll leave your last ‘going-off-on-a-tangent’ points for another day.

[Peter]

I will return to Hellewell’s article later, though I will allow myself one quick comment about it, namely that it does seem to have a slightly fermenting whiff of 'sour grapes'. And now for the rest of your posting :



I can’t offer any comparative comments on the respective talents of Harris and Emin, but as far as I know Emin has never claimed to be a visual/pictorial artist. Maybe she can’t paint, but neither perhaps can sculptors. One must be careful how one defines “artist”.



You know my intellectual/academic credentials : clever and superior, I believe your words were. Of course, we are free to make our own minds up. But minds can be changed, opened, even. To respond to your (original, now edited) Megan point, I criticised your posting the link because of its demagogic intent (see posting #22). I see no harm in suggesting further reading about the subject, and reject your claim that I was being patronising to Megan. It is sure that reading will not necessarily modify one’s dislike for such music, but it may well clarify our ‘expectations’ of the genre. To this end, another book I can recommend : The Language of Electroacoustic Music, Ed. Simon Emmerson, Macmillan Press, 1986.



I shall attempt a ‘dismantling’ of the article, later, as I have already said. You decided to cite it; and with evident glee. Therefore don’t complain if I find its content questionable. I’ll leave your last ‘going-off-on-a-tangent’ points for another day.

Firstly Philip I don't know why you have such a problem with editing - the facility exists to be used! I never edit after a response has been made and only did so here because I thought it a minor point that distracted from the debate.

We have very differing views on this topic because we are coming from different angles - you are very much influenced by John Cage and his belief that "the randomness of bread crumbs on a table was as significant as any artwork". This is a position I refute entirely as I do his claim that "Beethoven was in error, and his influence, which has been extensive as it is lamentable, has been deadening to the art of music" - I would suggest that remarks like that show where the sour grapes are really coming from. Interesting to know if you agree with Cage on Beethoven?

I did not cite that article in a state of glee but simply because it summed up perfectly how I feel and comes from a composer who was part of the avant garde movement. There are many other composers, eminent musicians (and most of the public) who share these opinions and of course I do not expect you to agree with the article!

[Preston]

We have very differing views on this topic because we are coming from different angles - you are very much influenced by John Cage and his belief that "the randomness of bread crumbs on a table was as significant as any artwork". This is a position I refute entirely as I do his claim that "Beethoven was in error, and his influence, which has been extensive as it is lamentable, has been deadening to the art of music" - I would suggest that remarks like that show where the sour grapes are really coming from. Interesting to know if you agree with Cage on Beethoven?

I would like to know this too, Philip, do you agree with Cage about Beethoven?

I am no major in the arts as I am sure you can all tell, ! Although after reading Peter's post about the subject and reading Philip's post, it would seem that perhaps Philip it is your mind that needs to be changed, again no offense.

How in the hell could "crumbs" compare to the hard work, the spirituality, the understanding of art, the beauty of a soul working hard to create music and art so unimaginable that the people can only begin to imagine.

To me it sounds like Cage was caught up in a superficial world, that would have been better had he have been in. How could he say that about Beethoven? Apparently, he lacks the understanding, because of the world he got so lost in- which is what I was telling you Philip about loss. Cage did not understand Beethoven, as he should have, it would seem to me, so is it not his loss?

[Quijote]

Firstly Philip I don't know why you have such a problem with editing - the facility exists to be used! I never edit after a response has been made and only did so here because I thought it a minor point that distracted from the debate.

I don't have a problem with editing. My point is that sometimes forum members edit their initial posting after I (or others) have replied. This in effect can undermine or invalidate the comment(s) that follow the original posting. To take a concrete example, you posted along the lines of 'why thank Megan for consulting the link I made but criticize me for doing so' (to paraphrase). I saw your original posting, but had no time to reply there and then. The next day you changed this. Should I therefore wait several hours (or days) to see the final crystallisation of your position before responding? Personally, I tend to edit very soon after my comment, and then only for minor details of spelling or grammar.

We have very differing views on this topic because we are coming from different angles - you are very much influenced by John Cage and his belief that "the randomness of bread crumbs on a table was as significant as any artwork". This is a position I refute entirely as I do his claim that "Beethoven was in error, and his influence, which has been extensive as it is lamentable, has been deadening to the art of music" - I would suggest that remarks like that show where the sour grapes are really coming from. Interesting to know if you agree with Cage on Beethoven?

You know my influences, do you? Please refrain from putting words in my mouth - you are quite capable of presenting coherent arguments without recourse to demagogy. For the record, I do not consider the randomness of breadcrumbs on a Bechstein as significant as any other artwork. That said, I do have a particular sensitivity to fortuitous coincidences. I will give you an example : sometimes, walking to work (where I exercise my clever and superior skills) I am struck by, perhaps, two cars passing by and honking their horns in anger. What strikes me is not that two cars are honking, but rather that the interval (in close proximity to the event) of the car horns creates a deliciously dissonant minor second that 'evolves' over time as the cars pass by - passing from a minor second to larger intervals. At other times I hear the cathedral bells tolling (a nice mixture of C, B-flat, F, G and other harmonics) and a sudden simultaneous call (human, bird, machine) that gives me a frisson of pleasure. I do not call that an artwork. It is this - acousmatic - approach to sound that enthralls me about electroacoustic music. And you seek to mock that.
I have an open ear and -more importantly - an open mind to such things. It does not mean that I undervalue the music of Beethoven or other masters, and I resent your implication that I do.

[Quijote]

I would like to know this too, Philip, do you agree with Cage about Beethoven?

I am no major in the arts as I am sure you can all tell, ! Although after reading Peter's post about the subject and reading Philip's post, it would seem that perhaps Philip it is your mind that needs to be changed, again no offense.

How in the hell could "crumbs" compare to the hard work, the spirituality, the understanding of art, the beauty of a soul working hard to create music and art so unimaginable that the people can only begin to imagine.

To me it sounds like Cage was caught up in a superficial world, that would have been better had he have been in. How could he say that about Beethoven? Apparently, he lacks the understanding, because of the world he got so lost in- which is what I was telling you Philip about loss. Cage did not understand Beethoven, as he should have, it would seem to me, so is it not his loss?

Preston's post shows the lamentable results of Peter's demagogy. I rest my case.
No, Preston, no offense taken. Please see my recent reply to Peter.

[Quijote]

Just another question to Preston : what is your view of the Hellewell article cited by Peter?

[Preston]

Just another question to Preston : what is your view of the Hellewell article cited by Peter?

As I said above, I am not a major in art.

The article is very derogatory towards the Avant-Garde.

It would take me a better understanding of Avant-Garde to answer you completely. What I understand, is that it is experimental and modern music and arts. So my first thought, would be why experimental, when music and art has been deeply experimented over the past 1000 years or so. I could see it being elitist, and lacking understanding of form. Now, I am not saying that it is all bad, that I do not know.

What I don't fully understand, are things like 4'33, the church bells that ring for 600 years, Emin's bed, etc. It would seem that they lack thought and talent for creating art, as it should be. I know that people would say that they are thought, but I would disagree with it being any substantial thought.

I also do not understand, how some of them could disregard the other arts.

Now, I am not saying that all Avant-Garde is wrong, because I do not know it enough, these are just my initial thoughts towards the subject.

I know that this is an understudied thought towards the Advant-Garde.

[Quijote]

So my first thought, would be why experimental, when music and art has been deeply experimented over the past 1000 years or so.

A good question, Preston. You have preempted me : this was going to be my first point in dismantling the Hallewell article, i.e. his imprecise (or vague) use of the term 'avant garde'. I will return to this point in more detail later.

[Quijote]

[...] I do have a particular sensitivity to fortuitous coincidences. I will give you an example : sometimes, walking to work (where I exercise my clever and superior skills) I am struck by, perhaps, two cars passing by and honking their horns in anger. What strikes me is not that two cars are honking, but rather that the interval (in close proximity to the event) of the car horns creates a deliciously dissonant minor second that 'evolves' over time as the cars pass by - passing from a minor second to larger intervals. At other times I hear the cathedral bells tolling (a nice mixture of C, B-flat, F, G and other harmonics) and a sudden simultaneous call (human, bird, machine) that gives me a frisson of pleasure. I do not call that an artwork. It is this - acousmatic - approach to sound that enthralls me about electroacoustic music.

More examples of such fortuitous 'musical events' (not artworks) : sitting on a train from Stanstead airport (Essex) to Birmingham - seeing passengers get on the train at various stops and hearing how the accents 'evolve' over the journey (flat vowels, 'nasa'l timbre and so on); the döppel effect of sirens; the 'phasing' of cars' indicators (out of phase / in-phase / out of phase); the 'framing' of various sonic landscapes (high 'white noise' airplane sound in counterpoint to the low diesel 'cantus firmus' of a bus's diesel engine with middle voices provided by human/animal agency ... the list is quite endless. Is this 'music'? Contrary to Cage I don't believe such events constitute artworks but his asking the question remains valid. But all that is merely 'concrète'. Electroacoustic music is quite a quantum leap from this.

[Peter]

I don't have a problem with editing. My point is that sometimes forum members edit their initial posting after I (or others) have replied. This in effect can undermine or invalidate the comment(s) that follow the original posting. To take a concrete example, you posted along the lines of 'why thank Megan for consulting the link I made but criticize me for doing so' (to paraphrase). I saw your original posting, but had no time to reply there and then. The next day you changed this. Should I therefore wait several hours (or days) to see the final crystallisation of your position before responding? Personally, I tend to edit very soon after my comment, and then only for minor details of spelling or grammar.



You know my influences, do you? Please refrain from putting words in my mouth - you are quite capable of presenting coherent arguments without recourse to demagogy. For the record, I do not consider the randomness of breadcrumbs on a Bechstein as significant as any other artwork. That said, I do have a particular sensitivity to fortuitous coincidences. I will give you an example : sometimes, walking to work (where I exercise my clever and superior skills) I am struck by, perhaps, two cars passing by and honking their horns in anger. What strikes me is not that two cars are honking, but rather that the interval (in close proximity to the event) of the car horns creates a deliciously dissonant minor second that 'evolves' over time as the cars pass by - passing from a minor second to larger intervals. At other times I hear the cathedral bells tolling (a nice mixture of C, B-flat, F, G and other harmonics) and a sudden simultaneous call (human, bird, machine) that gives me a frisson of pleasure. I do not call that an artwork. It is this - acousmatic - approach to sound that enthralls me about electroacoustic music. And you seek to mock that.
I have an open ear and -more importantly - an open mind to such things. It does not mean that I undervalue the music of Beethoven or other masters, and I resent your implication that I do.

Philip you must stop being so dramatic with your use of words, apparently I am now a demagoue! Honestly you have called me every name under the sun in these debates simply because I express a dislike of the avant garde - please try not to be so personal in your attacks, I have refrained from using insulting terminology and childish name calling. You seem to fail to recognise that I am voicing a majority opinion - a majority not just amongst the public, but amongst the classical music public - those who perform, buy the cds and attend concerts. Yours is clearly a minority position.

I am not 'putting words in your mouth' - you have expressed your admiration of Cage on this forum many times and your views seem to me very much in sympathy with his. I therefore wondered if you concur with him about Beethoven and if you also think the symphonies are best heard played altogether at the same time as he advocated? You say you don't which is fair enough, but doesn't that make you question the thoughts (or even the sanity) of a man who suggests such things? A man who wrote that "The Maoist model managed to free a quarter of humanity."

Many avant garde artists and composers do actually denigrate the past masters and Rolf Harris was responding to Emin's silly comments in this regard. Again I noticed no criticism of her views from you.

[PDG]

Many avant garde artists and composers do actually denigrate the past masters and Rolf Harris was responding to Emin's silly comments in this regard.

If this is so, then one can only presume that their ignorance creates in them some sort of cataract through which they will not try and peer. This must be because what they may discover would challenge them beyond their understanding, and so it is far easier and safer to dismiss it, in the even subconscious hope that they will carry public opinion with them.

Philip has already rested his case (post #66 - very handy, these post numbers), but I believe a telling remark was one he made elsewhere when he sort-of suggested that as much pleasure could be gleaned from studying a Beethoven score as actually listening to the music. I couldn't disagree more. The emotional response is gained soley from the listening experience, which is as it was designed to do. We can greatly admire the score but it cannot carry us away as the flow of sound can.

[Preston]

I have looked into the avant garde more, through Wikipedia. It appears that there are different movements of avant garde, so to say I like or don't like avant garde, would seem to me to be wrong, seeing as there are some amazing avant garde movements. Some of it seems to be not so good, such as Emin's bed, while some of it- such as Cubism, which Picasso worked with, seems to be much better.

If you scroll, towards the bottom of this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde , it will list the different movements in the avant garde.

You have what I would call good art such as, Impressionism, Cubism, Expressionism, etc.

Then there are the hack artists, if they could be called artists? I do not think so.

I did not know that Impressionism was avant garde! I knew that it was modern, should have figured.

Philip, you bring up some good points but, I do not know why you mention all the, what I would call, bad and trash pieces of avant garde, instead of the purer and deeper pieces? Just wondering.

So, apparently, the avant garde has had great movements and not great movements. Need to read more about it to know more.

I really need to study the arts more, sometimes I wish that I was majoring in it, well a lot of times, so that I could get a better understanding of the unimaginable amounts of information on the arts, .

[Peter]

I have looked into the avant garde more, through Wikipedia. It appears that there are different movements of avant garde, so to say I like or don't like avant garde, would seem to me to be wrong, seeing as there are some amazing avant garde movements. Some of it seems to be not so good, such as Emin's bed, while some of it- such as Cubism, which Picasso worked with, seems to be much better.

If you scroll, towards the bottom of this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde , it will list the different movements in the avant garde.

You have what I would call good art such as, Impressionism, Cubism, Expressionism, etc.

Then there are the hack artists, if they could be called artists? I do not think so.

I did not know that Impressionism was avant garde! I knew that it was modern, should have figured.

Philip, you bring up some good points but, I do not know why you mention all the, what I would call, bad and trash pieces of avant garde, instead of the purer and deeper pieces? Just wondering.

So, apparently, the avant garde has had great movements and not great movements. Need to read more about it to know more.

I really need to study the arts more, sometimes I wish that I was majoring in it, well a lot of times, so that I could get a better understanding of the unimaginable amounts of information on the arts, .

I think this is very true and sensible Preston. I admit my use of the term avant-garde is very blanket and general. I am referring particularly to electroacoustics and to the likes of Emin in the 'art' world. I respect Philip's approach because he has thought sensibly and intelligently about these issues and finds much to admire.

To me a great deal of the avant garde is false and a negation of all the values and beauty in music and art that so moves me. I cannot gain pleasure from listening to motor cars or aeroplanes or any noise. I find it incredible that people do gain pleasure from such things when there is Bach and Beethoven! I am only expressing my opinion and others are entirely free to think as they like without me thinking them demagogues.

[Megan]

I am obviously not a musicologist, nor have I gained any degrees in the subject, so it would seem from my point of view, that this debate should be left to the experts, therefore perhaps the reason why non-participation of members who feel out of their depth, even though some questions are thought provoking. that leaves me out of this debate. My interest in accoustic science or whether random noises are considered to be music, doesn't hold my interest enough so that I would want to analyse and probe the mysteries of sound, though the subject is very stimulating to some. I fear I am not articulate enough in this field to make any meaningful contribution, I'll leave that to the music Bods.

I would however, like to ask the question, why would random sounds , ie, motor cars, aeroplanes, helicopters, pnuematic drills, the whine of a dentists drill, subway trains, pulling out of the station, be considered music? If these sounds were put in a harmonious order, then I would call that music.
If you let a chimp happily bang away up and down the piano keyboard, or randomly pluck away at a harp, would you call that music??

Also, music as you recall, comes from the word 'Muses' meaning the arts, or the spirits of beauty and harmony in the Greek world.



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