New Here/Misc.

[PDG]

Hi Hi Hi

Well, Your Highness TC, you should know that I regard Schubert's music as being so high up the High Up list that it's highness is only high-ed by Beethoven, who is the Highest of the High. So the Unfinished Symphony, while not being the Highest ranking symphony of all time, is certainly the highest on the Unfinished High list.

Now, yes please, send me some pics from your holiday jolly (tanned or even just mildly buffed). If however, your Sicilian husband has Mafia connections, then please ask the chemist to destroy the prints before developing them, instead. I do not want - repeat, not want!! - to wake up with a horse's head in my bed. Horses are measured in hands, thus a horse is so many hands high. Thus, again, it all comes back to Highness.

Please ignore the second paragraph as it is complete gibberish (although some of my best work on this site....... ), and makes the first paragraph seem almost understandable.

I remain, yours incoherently,
PDG.......

[AlexOv]

Now see what you've done!

Gees this is annoying: I log in and commence typing and when I get to submit it, I am told I am not logged in and all of what I had typed is lost, gone forever and I have to make a decision as to whether to type it out again or not re-invest the time. And I see above this box that it says I am still logged in?! So I go again to Word and copasting this text in later.

That happened to me a few weeks ago. Why don't I learn?!

What I said before my first effort was lost was something like this: Yes, I am kind of sorry to have awakened this thread but I notice that it took about a month and a half from the time Peter first suggested that the posters stick to the topic of Beethoven (12/26/07) to the time it actually seemed to dry up (02/11/08).

Now however, I have woken the beast and since I see that there still are several photos of a beautiful and voluptuous woman here in hyperspace for all to see, perhaps an administrator like Peter could arrange to have them, and a good deal of this thread, removed entirely. They are not relevant to any discussion about music. Sorry, but that’s the truth. I don’t know what any of the other regulars here look like in real life, and don’t care. (Our love of LvB and his music are what joins us and that is what is more important, plus of course the hope that PDG doesn’t actually look like his Dan Dare avatar!) Most of the posts in this thread could or should have been done via private messages.

After all, TC – assuming you read this – the purpose of your starting the thread was to introduce yourself, and since people have written back and forth 75 times by way of banter and conversation, and since the thread has been viewed 1376 times, I think you could say you have well and truly achieved the purpose. If it – the introduction – was done via a communal telephone hookup and had not been recorded, there would be no great loss. We could consider these pages in the same way, no?

As well, believe it or not, I spent quite a bit of time, lately, worrying about you - someone who I don’t personally - because I read in the newspaper just a few days ago that short men – and maybe your potentially hot-blooded Sicilian husband fits this description - are more prone to jealousy than tall men. You don’t have photos here with the two of you happily together which emphasise your happy marital status. So I worried about what might happen if your husband found out about your “online life” here, with its humorously intended marriage proposal. I hope you are safe and well. But I probably worried unnecessarily.

Nonetheless, I move, in proper committee parlance, that some or all of this thread be removed.

Anyone care to second the motion?

[TiberiaClaudia]

Hey PDG--

I'm so blinded by seeing red over the suggestion that this thread be removed that I don't think I can comprehend what you wrote.

To whomever else--

The pictures were directed at two members who saw my avatar. It was just an almost whimsical christmas present--and as a college student, these kinds of photographs are passed all over the place on campus after spring break so I don't consider them in any way obscene. Furthermore, my husband has full access to my computer and knows they are posted. AND-he is secure enough our marriage that he doesn't have to get jealous over someone else seeing them. AlexoV, I really do not see what your problem is.

I am leaving this website. I'm sick of feeling like I can't be myself here because I'm not some kind of musicologist/scholarly type. As an artist, I have no problems with the photographs I posted--I'm actually rather proud of them, that is why I chose to share them. If someone else has issues then they don't need to participate in the thread and motion that it be removed when it never concerned, or was directed, at them in the first place.

I will not let my love for LvB, or my sense of humor and individuality, be hampered by a bunch of stuffshirts that Beethoven, undoubtedly, would not have stood aside to let pass by him on a public prominade, hence my decision to call this site quits.

Philip, Phil Leeds, Heidi, PDG--I am happy I got to meet you all, even if it was for a short time.

TC

[Sorrano]

If my flippant comment offended anyone I apologize. I simply saw some humor in the irony that AlexOv's posting had the opposite effect that he intended when he rejuvenated this thread.

It is not uncommon for a forum to have a general chat where everything goes as long as the rules of the forum are kept. Nor is it uncommon for there to be a thread in that section in which people post their pictures.

Regardless, my post was not intended to offend.

[Quijote]

Anyone care to second the motion?

Hello AlexOv.
I don't second your motion, as I am one of the "guilty party" in your 'peroration' above (which is perhaps too long to quote here again).

I have just a few coments to make : I think the fact that Peter moved the thread in question to its present position demonstrates at least his tacit approval of the content. As Peter once admonished me (and I stand duly and fairly corrected), the forum is for specialists and non-specialists alike and I for one welcome a 'space' where one can be a little more lighthearted. The jokes and humourous banter in the thread you object to are to some extent Beethoven-related. Navigating the forum it is manifestly clear where the serious Beethoven discussions are, and so if you have inadvertently drifted into this part of the forum you only have to ignore it, and post where the subjects seem most relevant to you. This is what I have learnt to do here, in any case.

Why do I detect a slight 'sermonizing' tone to your posting? And why are you so worried about TC and the state of her marital affairs? I have privately emailed TC and she assures me her husband is a top mafia don. The 'boys' have been dispatched, so expect a little visit from them shortly. You should have no trouble recognising them, they are short, speak in a Sicilian dialect, wear sunglasses whatever the weather or time of day and have ominous-looking bulges in their jackets. By the way, don't mention Beethoven because they can't stand him, preferring instead to discuss structuring techniques in the operas of Puccinni. Good luck.

PS - I take advantage of this posting to message Peter and Sorrano et al : I haven't forgotten the questions (mediant substitutions, the importance of intervals of the third, harpsichord and HIP performance issues etc) that are pending from my end (so to speak); I will deal with them as soon as I can - I really am very very busy with other fish to fry at the moment, but I will get back to you all.

[PDG]

As well, believe it or not, I spent quite a bit of time, lately, worrying about you - someone who I don’t personally - because I read in the newspaper just a few days ago that short men – and maybe your potentially hot-blooded Sicilian husband fits this description - are more prone to jealousy than tall men. You don’t have photos here with the two of you happily together which emphasise your happy marital status. So I worried about what might happen if your husband found out about your “online life” here, with its humorously intended marriage proposal. I hope you are safe and well. But I probably worried unnecessarily.

Nonetheless, I move, in proper committee parlance, that some or all of this thread be removed.

Anyone care to second the motion?

Alex, your motion is denied on the grounds that it is ridiculous. Good God, man, read your own posting again. I'm guessing that you've not yet had much life experience, and are therefore a little uncomfortable with the idea of cyberspace sauciness? Please let me tell you that this thread is so mild in terms of its humour and innuendo that you really should be able to glide over it as though it were a speed bump in the road. As Philip says, no one is forcing you to read this stuff, so why feel the need to object to it?

This Comments and Suggestions forum is not necessarily intended for Classical Music posting (as I understand the rules here), so again, where's the harm? Even then, Beethoven and Schubert are still being mentioned.
We may well have just lost one "beautiful and voluptuous" member (your words), and if we have, I hope this pleases you to the point of self-congratulation. But I won't be joining in.

[Quijote]

Hey, Jen. I never received any private photos? If you sent them to Philip exclusively, that may explain why he is needing an extended lie down right now (that, and the many empty vin bottles by his bed (each one called "Tracy").
Good luck with the Pastorale, still my favourite Beethoven symphony.....

My dear PDG,
Unfortunately, I have not received any such photos, but as you know I have a vivid imagination ...
Now if you will excuse me I have just taken some ether (yes, another bottle bearing an Appellation Tracy Controlée label) and I can see the bats are coming. Oh dear, where will all this end?

Re the Pastoral - I owe an answer to Peter concerning 'structural weighting', but I share your enthusiasm for that work. You know, I don't really think I have a particular 'favourite', it changes for me.

[PDG]

Re the Pastoral - I owe an answer to Peter concerning 'structural weighting', but I share your enthusiasm for that work. You know, I don't really think I have a particular 'favourite', it changes for me.

Thanks for your sober response, Philip (!).

I believe that a weighted Pastoral Symphony would have damaged the programmatic intentions and quality of the work. After all, nature itself is not weighted. In the symphony, the only 'heavy' movement is The Storm, and yet this is also the shortest (and look again here at Beethoven's writing/arrangement economy!). If conductors take the opening Allegro too slowly (as they invariably do), the work ends up sounding like a succession of slow movements, punctuated only by The Storm.

For me, the crucial movement is the Andante 2nd. But just as in nature, we shouldn't attach too much attention to any particular movement, or any perceived movement-within-a movement. The flow is everything.

[AlexOv]

PDG, I do, of course, have a few comments to make about this. I agree with you about all you wrote and have a different understanding about it now. The “beast” to which I referred, by the way, was the thread and not a person. I meant it in a friendly manner, although I will readily concede that I didn’t make that clear and should have used a simpler term.

There was a newspaper article just a few days ago of which I spoke in my first attempt at my last post - which was lost due to technical difficulties of some sort, as I said - and which I wish TC had seen (forgive me for abbreviating her moniker; it’s so much shorter). Alas, I forgot about this news item when I did the second attempt. It would have explained my concern for her very well and I sincerely regret that I did forget about it. The news item was about research indicating that short men apparently suffer from jealousy much more than tall men, and knowing that TC’s husband was from Sicily, he could, and I emphasise the word could , therefore be short and possibly prone to being jealous. If he isn’t jealous, that’s great but I didn’t know that. If you have ever had reason to be jealous, you wouldn’t want that to happen to another, I would hope. It is not the most positive of emotions and the results of it can be awful. Was it so bad of me to share my concern?

It is quite saddening to me that
1) the mere suggestion that the photos and some of the text be removed, because they are not relevant to Beethoven, has led to what seems to be an immediate and perhaps permanent decision on TC’s part to quit this site. What a shame! And you can’t unring a bell, so they say. I didn’t think anyone else suggested the removal and I am only one of how many members? Quite a few, yes? But she quit before anyone, like you for example, had a chance to disagree with me.

2) despite the apparent delight TC felt - “Hello all,

I'm so happy I found this site! I never thought anything like this existed...” -after discovering a group of likeminded souls – new friends in all of you? - who also loved LvB, and being able to talk here at length about him and all things connected to him, yet, after my suggestion that the photos no longer needed to be here, she decided immediately that all of those new friends were of no value to her. How does it make you people feel, I wondered, that someone can decide to have nothing more to do with you because of my suggestion, which was partly made out of concern for her in the first place?

3) her absence is apparently to be a permanent one. It is our loss also. I am sure we all – or the majority perhaps – enjoyed reading what TC had to say about LvB in her many posts. And if she takes the time to read this – and I hope she does (please do, TC, as I really meant no offense) – maybe she will reconsider her hasty decision. Perhaps you can unring a bell!

Re the suggestion that I need not have found my way to this part of the site, after a lengthy absence while I was overseas in January, I noticed that a new regular contributor was here and saying a lot of interesting and refreshing things. Good to see some new blood, I thought, as I am sure many of us did.

Later, I just happened to remember the Comments and Suggestions section and saw TC’s name there. Naturally I wondered what she had suggested or commented on in relation to the site. But what I found was neither a suggestion or a comment. So, considering its contents, I commented that it was a good thing that that thread had kind of petered out. Then PDG “woke up” and I suspect TC then got an email telling her that PDG or Sorrano had made a comment, etc, and the thread started to have a life again. Then and not before, I made my own suggestion/comment, in the very area of the site which is intended for the purpose - that the photos and some other parts get deleted - and now we have this unfortunate and unexpected result.

In the past, I have made suggestions re the website. Are they still there? No. I didn’t mind if my suggestions were taken down. As long as they were considered and maybe implemented by someone like Peter, then why should they stay there for all to see how clever I was in making suggestions to improve the site? Why should TC object if her photos are removed? This isn’t MySpace or LiveJournal, it is part of a website that is about improving the website.

Did I ever describe the photos as obscene? No. I just think they don’t need to stay here for all time.

Now, it may be that TC will not receive any email notification about this post of mine and that if she did and saw it was from me, she may not read it at all, so angry she still may be. So PDG, if you think it might help, could you please send her an email yourself and ask/suggest that she may find some remorse in these words of mine and reconsider her decision?

[Sorrano]

Sometimes, AlexOv, it is best to let well enough (or bad enough) alone without exacerbating the issue. Ignoring threads can be far more effective than replying to them in shutting them down.

[AlexOv]

Gees, I feel so stupid now, having seen and forgot that I had seen, the bit about the newpaer jealousy thing that I had in fact remembered to include. I take it all back. It was only a suggestion. I was sure when I first looked at this page again just now that I didn't see anything added below PDG's first rebuttal of my "motion", and having sent my reply, I now see his second response and Phillips as well. Boy, do I feel dumb!! I am standing corrected and will lay low for a while. Maybe a good while! Bye for now!

[Sorrano]

Everyone makes mistakes. The important thing to do when one makes a mistake is to admit it. You've done that, so let's get on to more Beethoven things and let go of this issue.

Gees, I feel so stupid now, having seen and forgot that I had seen, the bit about the newpaer jealousy thing that I had in fact remembered to include. I take it all back. It was only a suggestion. I was sure when I first looked at this page again just now that I didn't see anything added below PDG's first rebuttal of my "motion", and having sent my reply, I now see his second response and Phillips as well. Boy, do I feel dumb!! I am standing corrected and will lay low for a while. Maybe a good while! Bye for now!

[TiberiaClaudia]

PDG, I do, of course, have a few comments to make about this. I agree with you about all you wrote and have a different understanding about it now. The “beast” to which I referred, by the way, was the thread and not a person. I meant it in a friendly manner, although I will readily concede that I didn’t make that clear and should have used a simpler term.

There was a newspaper article just a few days ago of which I spoke in my first attempt at my last post - which was lost due to technical difficulties of some sort, as I said - and which I wish TC had seen (forgive me for abbreviating her moniker; it’s so much shorter). Alas, I forgot about this news item when I did the second attempt. It would have explained my concern for her very well and I sincerely regret that I did forget about it. The news item was about research indicating that short men apparently suffer from jealousy much more than tall men, and knowing that TC’s husband was from Sicily, he could, and I emphasise the word could , therefore be short and possibly prone to being jealous. If he isn’t jealous, that’s great but I didn’t know that. If you have ever had reason to be jealous, you wouldn’t want that to happen to another, I would hope. It is not the most positive of emotions and the results of it can be awful. Was it so bad of me to share my concern?

It is quite saddening to me that
1) the mere suggestion that the photos and some of the text be removed, because they are not relevant to Beethoven, has led to what seems to be an immediate and perhaps permanent decision on TC’s part to quit this site. What a shame! And you can’t unring a bell, so they say. I didn’t think anyone else suggested the removal and I am only one of how many members? Quite a few, yes? But she quit before anyone, like you for example, had a chance to disagree with me.

2) despite the apparent delight TC felt - “Hello all,

I'm so happy I found this site! I never thought anything like this existed...” -after discovering a group of likeminded souls – new friends in all of you? - who also loved LvB, and being able to talk here at length about him and all things connected to him, yet, after my suggestion that the photos no longer needed to be here, she decided immediately that all of those new friends were of no value to her. How does it make you people feel, I wondered, that someone can decide to have nothing more to do with you because of my suggestion, which was partly made out of concern for her in the first place?

3) her absence is apparently to be a permanent one. It is our loss also. I am sure we all – or the majority perhaps – enjoyed reading what TC had to say about LvB in her many posts. And if she takes the time to read this – and I hope she does (please do, TC, as I really meant no offense) – maybe she will reconsider her hasty decision. Perhaps you can unring a bell!

Re the suggestion that I need not have found my way to this part of the site, after a lengthy absence while I was overseas in January, I noticed that a new regular contributor was here and saying a lot of interesting and refreshing things. Good to see some new blood, I thought, as I am sure many of us did.

Later, I just happened to remember the Comments and Suggestions section and saw TC’s name there. Naturally I wondered what she had suggested or commented on in relation to the site. But what I found was neither a suggestion or a comment. So, considering its contents, I commented that it was a good thing that that thread had kind of petered out. Then PDG “woke up” and I suspect TC then got an email telling her that PDG or Sorrano had made a comment, etc, and the thread started to have a life again. Then and not before, I made my own suggestion/comment, in the very area of the site which is intended for the purpose - that the photos and some other parts get deleted - and now we have this unfortunate and unexpected result.

In the past, I have made suggestions re the website. Are they still there? No. I didn’t mind if my suggestions were taken down. As long as they were considered and maybe implemented by someone like Peter, then why should they stay there for all to see how clever I was in making suggestions to improve the site? Why should TC object if her photos are removed? This isn’t MySpace or LiveJournal, it is part of a website that is about improving the website.

Did I ever describe the photos as obscene? No. I just think they don’t need to stay here for all time.

Now, it may be that TC will not receive any email notification about this post of mine and that if she did and saw it was from me, she may not read it at all, so angry she still may be. So PDG, if you think it might help, could you please send her an email yourself and ask/suggest that she may find some remorse in these words of mine and reconsider her decision?

As far as my previous message calling it quits:

Except for this section of the site, after a couple of months of participation, I don't feel the site and I are a very good fit for one another--I am not a musician/musicologist, and I feel the whole of this place is directed toward those who are. I have made friends here and I shall continue to private message/e-mail those individuals so it isn't as if I am tossing anyone aside. I did not intend to convey that I consider EVERYONE on the site a "stuffshirt." Evidently this is not the case or else Peter (and others) would never have tolerated the ribaldry present in the thread to this point.

This ridiculousness hit at a time when stress levels are quite high in my life: Someone in our family committed suicide, final exams approach, involved projects in complicated science materials are being conducted, and my sister's pregnancy and the complications/illnesses she is experiencing as a result are to name but one third of my present stressors. Therefore, I hope everyone understands how/why my temper is a fuse ready to explode nowadays as I am sure is evident by my initial reaction.

In short, I really have other things to worry about than whether or not people are gawking at Florida pictures. Print them out and line your bird cages, delete them (Heck, I could even delete them since I posted them and would have no problem doing so), put them on your dart board--I really don't give a damn.

Per my husband and said article--I am five feet, ten inches. He is six feet exactly--barely short by any standard. I don't care what studies say, assuming that because someone is short they are jealous is absurd. Further, assuming that because someone is of Sicilian descent they are short is like saying all Italians are (fill in anything you have ever heard about that particular ethnic group.) I live with/work with Sicilians. Almost half of them are taller than I am. And if there is one thing they hate, they DESPISE being lumped into categories that are the result of sweeping generalizations based on their ethnicity.

In any event, I believe this whole episode is long overdue to be over.

TC

[Chris]

Except for this section of the site, after a couple of months of participation, I don't feel the site and I are a very good fit for one another--I am not a musician/musicologist, and I feel the whole of this place is directed toward those who are.

Hm...did I miss something here? I don't think anyone here is a musician or musicologist, except for Peter. Everyone else is just a music lover.

[Peter]

I'd rather as much passion went into the main forum - To Tiberia I would say I'm sorry you feel that way, but the main forum is designed primarily to discuss Beethoven and classical music and unfortunately to some that will seem stuffy!