New Here/Misc.

[TiberiaClaudia]

Hello all,

I'm so happy I found this site! I never thought anything like this existed...

A little about Beethoven and me:

I've loved Beethoven's music for as long as I can remember, my mother played/plays piano quite well and used to practice stuff for church at home. Beethoven's music was often part of her practice, along with Bach. Beethoven, however, always seemed to hold my attention...unlike all of the other stuff.

As a teenager I saw "Immortal Beloved" and got hooked on the enigma that is Beethoven, as well as who he really was behind the popular imaginings. I recently did a paper for my Chemistry class on Beethoven and lead poisoning, which led me to this site

A couple questions: Where can I obtain a copy of Beethoven's autopsy report? I have found excerpts but never the whole thing.

Also, what is the general opinion here of Anton Schindler?? I'd like to believe he was Beethoven's friend, but I am more inclined to think he was an opportunist using his association with Beethoven to further his own ends. I read somewhere that his calling card read "Friend of Beethoven." That seems to say everything, doesn't it?

Is there any extensive biography of Schindler available?

Couldn't Schindler have edited the conversation books to perserve his own reputation? After all, there are existing remarks made by Beethoven in letters that refer to Schindler as "wretched" and "Contemptible (sp?)." Very interested on the Schindler aspect. Incidentally, does anyone know how he died?

Ok, this post is getting really long...
Look forward to getting to know everyone!

Cheers,
J.

[Sorrano]

Welcome to the board, TiberiaClaudia! There is a thread here which discusses the lead poisoning theory; perhaps you've seen it? While I don't speak for the rest of the people here (they have to speak for themselves, of course), my own opinion of Schindler is not very high as I am in agreement with you that he was an opportunist. Glad to have you aboard!

[Preston]

Welcome to the forum!

[TiberiaClaudia]

Lead Poisoning

Hey there!

Yeah, that was one of the first articles I read while browsing around. I tend to agree that Beethoven's doctor was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, but I don't think Wawruch alone was the sole cause of his death. From what Beethoven himself wrote of his ailments it would appear that lead contamination had been an issue throughout his life. It was in the pottery, the paint, the wine, the medical treatments...and if Beethoven had reoccuring issues medically from his 20's onward then he would have sought treatment; treatments that had a good chance of containing lead.

I believe Wawruch practiced medicine in a manner that was common to the standard of his day. From where we stand we think he was an idiot...and from where Wawruch stood he probably considered those living 2-300 years prior to him (who utilized mummified human remains in medicine) just as stupid as we do him.

Ah, the advancement of technology and understanding...

Still, all that scholarly stuff aside, I feel horribly for what Beethoven must have gone through those last four months...it must have been sheer agony...

J.

[Preston]

Still, all that scholarly stuff aside, I feel horribly for what Beethoven must have gone through those last four months...it must have been sheer agony...

I feel that way about practically his whole life. Yes, Beethoven's suffering was immense.

[TiberiaClaudia]

You know, you are absolutely right. I have always felt the same as you in regards to Beethoven's life. I should have said:

"I feel horribly for what Beethoven must have gone through during his life, especially those last four months...it must have been sheer agony..."

But I have to ask, as many others have asked and will ask yet: Would his music have been what it was had he not suffered deafness? Turmoil? The situation is the epitome of the word bittersweet, indeed.

[Preston]

I would highly doubt that his music would have been the same had he not suffered from the problems that he had.

Primarily because I feel that in his case his suffering is part of his music. And by seeing the darkness (suffering) in life helped him to see the light, which is the major part of his music.

The only reason I say I doubt, is because... would it have been possible for him to understand the suffering and the light without having it happen to him , I don't know. It is highly doubtful, but possible I think, however unlikely.

What do you think?

[TiberiaClaudia]

On one hand it is possible, as a human being, to have empathy and a sense of what the other person is experiencing...but I believe that empathy for another's suffering only goes to a certain depth. There has to be a point where, unless you're the one suffering, you just can't comprehend what someone else is going through. The anger, the frustration, the despair, the fury, the resolution and the eventual peace (if resolution and peace are even actually come by, that is), those emotions are made so much deeper by actual first-hand experience.

I believe these emotions are what Beethoven's music is all about. His music brings us, as empathetic outsiders, into his life and his experiences. His music was his outlet. I also think that, as Beethoven experienced increasing levels of darkness in his life, the light spots, by comparison, had to seem correspondingly brighter...if that makes any sense at all. I'm really grasping at words to explain this as well as I feel it.

Beethoven's sufferings are one of the major things that sets Beethoven apart from all others. I think his experiences gave his music such intense power...and also the distinct sense of triumph after tribulation. The 9th symphony is such a good example of this. To me, personally, the 9th is Beethoven expressing his triumph over EVERYTHING he endured in life. What a final symphony!

Another one that is just awesome and reflects the idea of tribulation followed by joy as seen in nature is the Pastorale. In my mind I see, from the storm:

The storm strikes...there is driving rain, fury, wind...and then the thunder rolls off in the distance and the sky clears...springtime emerges, green, glistening...then the shepherd gives thanks for the rain, the life it brings, and the safe passing of the storm...

Even with the brillance and beauty of his music taken into consideration, it is still so unfortunate that he had to suffer so much.

[LeftyBob61]

I'd say "welcome aboard" but I'm brand new, too!

I've been a big Beethoven fan since I took a course in college (a long time ago!)....at the moment, I'm listening to XM Radio's "wall-to-wall" Beethoven Birthday Bash.

I believe I have a copy of the full autopsy report in one of my books. Send me a message if you're interested...if so, I'll try to copy it at work, scan it, and email it to you....

Regards...Bob.

P.S. Happy Birthday to Ludwig...and to my older brother, Jim!

[TiberiaClaudia]

Autopsy Report

I would be so grateful if you would send me a copy of Beethoven's autopsy report...

I'm in medically oriented college classes (for Dental Hyg.) and in reading through the excerpts, can actually understand what in the heck they were talking about-- which would not have been the case two or three years ago!!

I just read something today, as a matter of fact, on the autopsy itself and how the people who performed it totally disfigured Beethoven's skull. They fragmented large sections of it during the sawing process. G's, how sad, you know?? I guess the state of Beethoven's body deteriorated very, very rapidly between the times of death and burial. The author also speculates that the Heiligenstadt Testament was validation for the procedure...as well as the idea that Johann van Beethoven had a hand in giving consent.

I'll see if I can't find it again and paste the link. It had to do with tracing the skull fragments of Beethoven through the years. I only read the pages dealing with the autopsy and the two exhumations, tho, because it's quite long in totality.

Oh, and to everyone, thanks for the warm welcomes! This is one of the NICEST forums I've ever been part of!

[Preston]

I'd say "welcome aboard" but I'm brand new, too!

Welcome to the forum!

[Sorrano]

I'd say "welcome aboard" but I'm brand new, too!

I've been a big Beethoven fan since I took a course in college (a long time ago!)....at the moment, I'm listening to XM Radio's "wall-to-wall" Beethoven Birthday Bash.

I believe I have a copy of the full autopsy report in one of my books. Send me a message if you're interested...if so, I'll try to copy it at work, scan it, and email it to you....

Regards...Bob.

P.S. Happy Birthday to Ludwig...and to my older brother, Jim!

Welcome to the forum and hope you stay around awhile!

[Hollywood]

Greetings from Beethoven's Heiligenstadt, J. and Bob. Welcome to the forum.

[Peter]

Hello all,

I'm so happy I found this site! I never thought anything like this existed...

A little about Beethoven and me:

I've loved Beethoven's music for as long as I can remember, my mother played/plays piano quite well and used to practice stuff for church at home. Beethoven's music was often part of her practice, along with Bach. Beethoven, however, always seemed to hold my attention...unlike all of the other stuff.

As a teenager I saw "Immortal Beloved" and got hooked on the enigma that is Beethoven, as well as who he really was behind the popular imaginings. I recently did a paper for my Chemistry class on Beethoven and lead poisoning, which led me to this site

A couple questions: Where can I obtain a copy of Beethoven's autopsy report? I have found excerpts but never the whole thing.

Also, what is the general opinion here of Anton Schindler?? I'd like to believe he was Beethoven's friend, but I am more inclined to think he was an opportunist using his association with Beethoven to further his own ends. I read somewhere that his calling card read "Friend of Beethoven." That seems to say everything, doesn't it?

Is there any extensive biography of Schindler available?

Couldn't Schindler have edited the conversation books to perserve his own reputation? After all, there are existing remarks made by Beethoven in letters that refer to Schindler as "wretched" and "Contemptible (sp?)." Very interested on the Schindler aspect. Incidentally, does anyone know how he died?

Ok, this post is getting really long...
Look forward to getting to know everyone!

Cheers,
J.

Yes welcome TiberiaClaudia (wonderful name!)

I agree with you about Schindler. Firstly he liked to give the impression that he had been a close aquaintance of Beethoven since at least 1814 (when they did meet briefly) - however it was only during the period 1822-4 that they were in regular contact and for the last few months of Beethoven's life in 1827. Personally I wonder what motives Schindler had for visiting Beethoven in the last few months as it seems highly suspicious that it was into his hands that the conversation books were to fall. We know of course that he falsified entries and destroyed much and the question has to be why? To protect Beethoven's reputation or his own? Beethoven made it clear to Schindler that he wanted the Cromwellian truth 'warts and all' told about his life.

He also played a large part in blackening the names of all Beethoven's relatives. Beethoven had a highly suspicious nature and it wouldn't have taken much from someone like Schindler to fuel this. In short I think he was a vain, puritanical man determined to capitalise on his association with a great man.

[TiberiaClaudia]

Thanks, Everyone, for the warm welcomes and welcome to my fellow newcomer Leftybob


Thanks for the comment on my name, Peter If I were a Roman woman that's the name I'd choose, followed by the cognomen "Nerona."

The more I hear about Schindler, the more it sounds like he wanted to seclude Beethoven away from everyone in his life so that he could become the indespensible (sp) sole associate himself. I read he was a violinist and composer...every way one looks at the relationship, circumstantial though the existing evidence may be, it strongly appears Schindler was riding high off of his "friend's" reputation, especially since his own musical career wasn't taking off.

Still, the strangeness of the relationship fascinates me for some reason. Beethoven wrote someone (I think it was Reis, but I'm not sure) that he "stays as far away from the contemptable man (Schindler) as possible..."

So how, then, did Beethoven come to allow that man to be his personal errand boy/secretary?? And, how did Schindler, who was accused of witholding receipts, come back into Beethoven's good graces to the point of being largely the executor of Beethoven's will?? The guy was out with von Breuning selecting a burial plot when Beethoven died even.

He must have been a real weasel to ferret himself back in his good graces as he did.

I remember reading that, after Beethoven's death, his apartment was left open and people could pretty much come and go as they pleased, resulting in the loss of some of his works. Do you know anything more about this??

Curious it is...

Jenn