You damn antimahlerists

[Luis]

Looking for something funny to read about what was written on this forum in the last months, I tried searching “Mahler” on it and... Damn! You were writing enough anti-Mahler crap in my absence to fill a complete anti-Mahler forum!!! How can you hate him so much!!

Anyway, It was indeed a very funny reading.

So, best wishes to everybody. You’ll read me in a few days, I hope.

And of course, Mahler rules!!

[Peter]

I don't hate Mahler! He isn't my favourite by a long chalk, but some of the slow movements are quite beautiful - he has to be one of the most neurotic death-obsessed composers who ever lived though!



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Luis:


Anyway, It was indeed a very funny reading.

So, best wishes to everybody. You’ll read me in a few days, I hope.

And of course, Mahler rules!!

Well, you wouldn't go looking for something funny to read at a Mahler forum, that's for certain!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Luis]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, you wouldn't go looking for something funny to read at a Mahler forum, that's for certain!

Well, I'd rarely find something funny against other composer at a Mahler forum; mainly because we do not need to appeal to any kind of sarcasm against anyone in order to prove to ourselves Mahler’s indisputable supremacy in the symphonic field.
On the other hand, I doubt any other music forum could have such a witty entertainer as you my friend.

Have you heard Mahler's 8th, Peter? These days it’s overthrowing Mahler’s 2nd as my favorite symphony (yeah… sorry to say that). And I’m thinking it’s a great work to recommend even to people not very fond of Mahler’s ‘eccentricities’ and modernistic touches. Mahler himself defined it as objective work. Which I suppose it means that, except for somebody musically over-biased , everybody should appreciate it.

If anyone is interested Here you have an outstandig version with amazing sound.

[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 07-24-2001).]

[Peter]

Well I 'd say that Mahler being the supreme symphonic composer was very disputable! Yes I know the 8th and the 2nd, in fact all except the 10th and I do admire rather than love them - BUT no way in my estimation do any of them approach Beethoven's achievement They try to imitate it, particularly B's 9th which was and is rightly regarded as the summit of Symphonic achievement.

My criticisms of Mahler's eccentricities were soley in respect of his 'improvements' to Beethoven!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Luis:

On the other hand, I doubt any other music forum could have such a witty entertainer as you my friend.

Do you really mean that?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Luis]

Originally posted by Rod:
Do you really mean that?

I meant precisely this:

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
We've been arguing a lot lately, so I though perhaps I should post something a bit more fun.

Originally posted by Rod:

I thought we were having fun arguing.

Keep heating up the discussion as always!

Best wishes, Luis.

[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 07-24-2001).]

[Luis]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I 'd say that Mahler being the supreme symphonic composer was very disputable!

You prefer Beethoven as a symphonist, I’m preferring Mahler these days and there should be nothing to discuss about that. But for some reason everybody tend to put their preferences in terms of better and worse. To say our musical preferences are objectively founded is absolutely inadequate, but we love music too much to admit our taste is merely subjective. So the problem here wouldn’t be who is ‘right’ but who is more secure of his ‘faith’. And to this respect, for some reason there aren’t any fallen angels, infidels or other cults to abolish on a Mahler forum. Of course this doesn’t give to Mahler any kind of credit... but is something that happens.

Originally posted by Peter:

Yes I know the 8th and the 2nd, in fact all except the 10th and I do admire rather than love them - BUT no way in my estimation do any of them approach Beethoven's achievement They try to imitate it, particularly B's 9th which was and is rightly regarded as the summit of Symphonic achievement.

Beethoven’s ‘achievement’ will always remain indisputable. To me this should refer to the composer’s ‘historical merit’ and no other composer made such a revolution in the history of western music. Compared to the music previous to him, Beethoven’s output is simply amazing.

I don’t think Mahler tried to imitate Beethoven musically. Right now only his 2nd comes to my mind as having some reminiscences of a B symphony; but only by having furious last mvt opening and a splendorous choral finale. There are also ‘quotations’ on different M symphonies but this is pretty common in other composers, including B. In the only aspect M tried to ‘imitate’ B is in developing the symphony scale. And I don’t think this could quit Mahler any merit.


[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 07-25-2001).]

[oboe_15]

Luis, )

It is always good to see someone else pushing the names of other composers than myself. Although it is like trying to push a flood up a hill, I like the challenge, however some rules I have learned are as follows:

1) If at all possible try to avoid mentioning Grieg, Tchaikovsky and Debussy all in the last scentence.

2) If Swanlake is metioned, prepare yourself for a shock, as it is good for nothing!

3) Beethoven is the king (and he really is (in some ways))

4) Have fun and do not take to heart the things that are said if they are out of context of Beethoven

5) Rods' "Corrective Services" are to be stayed well away from (ha ha ha) (despite the fact that I have asked for mine and I still haven't got them).

Oh, and What was Mahlers forte instrument - was it the Piano?

Beethoven (and Mahler) all Rock!

oboe_15.........soon_16!

[This message has been edited by oboe_15 (edited 07-25-2001).]

[Luis]

Well, thanks for the ‘behavioral recommendations’, Oboe, but I’m afraid I know these rules perfectly (I’ve never respected them, though). I’ve been here since the day this forum was created!

About Mahler’s forte instrument. Yes, he played the piano quite well, I suppose, since I believe he won a piano competition or something when he was young. But he never composed any piece for that instrument. Mahler was an extremely busy conductor (one of the most admired of his time) and only had time to compose in his summer vacations. As a result of this, his musical output is rather limited (Ten symphonies -the last one incomplete-; 7 song cycles -Das Lied von der Erde; Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen; Rückert Lieder; Kindertotenlieder; Des Knaben Wunderhorn; Lieder aus der Jugendzeit and Das Klagende Lied-; And other minor works such as the completation of a Weber opera -The Three Pintos-, and some arrangements of other composer’s music including all Beethoven’s Symphonies, I don’t remember which of his piano concertos and his string quartet No. 11, op.95) As far as I know, there are recordings of Mahler’s ‘version’ of B’s 9th and that of the quartet arrangement.


Mahler (and Beethoven, why not...) all Rock!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Luis:
[BSo the problem here wouldn’t be who is ‘right’ but who is more secure of his ‘faith’. And to this respect, for some reason there aren’t any fallen angels, infidels or other cults to abolish on a Mahler forum. Of course this doesn’t give to Mahler any kind of credit... but is something that happens.

[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 07-25-2001).][/B]

You don't get the same thing at a Mahler Forum because you do not get Classical era specialists visiting it. Whereas at B forums you get Romantic specialists who only really admire Beethoven from a periferal point of view, even if they do not admit it, and from this extremely limited standpoint have the afront to judge Beethoven in the context of these other guys. Beethoven makes a very poor Romantic, which is why Romantic specialists are never truely satisfied with Beethoven, but paradoxically Classical specialists may be dissatisfied with B because most of B's work are performed so lamely due to the Romantic influence B performances have been burdened with. Beethoven with this burden to me does not make great music, just ordinary music. It is only my own realisation of the true possiblities thay lie within the music, when performed CORRECTLY, that makes it clear to me that this music is truely so great.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Luis]

Originally posted by Rod:
You don't get the same thing at a Mahler Forum because you do not get Classical era specialists visiting it. Whereas at B forums you get Romantic specialists who only really admire Beethoven from a peripheral point of view, even if they do not admit it, and from this extremely limited standpoint have the afront to judge Beethoven in the context of these other guys. Beethoven makes a very poor Romantic, which is why Romantic specialists are never truly satisfied with Beethoven, but paradoxically Classical specialists may be dissatisfied with B because most of B's work are performed so lamely due to the Romantic influence B performances have been burdened with. Beethoven with this burden to me does not make great music, just ordinary music. It is only my own realization of the true possibilities that lie within the music, when performed CORRECTLY, that makes it clear to me that this music is truly so great.

mmmm... I don't think so.

You say the discussions on a Mahler forum could be less ‘politicized’ because all the people who post there prefer romantic composers whereas on a Beethoven forum the people usually like both R & C or only classical composers. I'd say that even when the facts you mention are basically correct, the terms romanticism and classicism don't explain too much. You like Beethoven, for example, but you can't stand Mozart; Serge like lots of romantic composers but he "hates", in his own words, Mahler. On a Mahler forum some people don’t like Shumman, Dvorak, Brahms or even Bruckner but somehow they don’t act as if these composers were ‘questionating’ any of Mahler’s 'sacred commandments’.

I also don’t agree with you when you say that “Romantic specialists only really admire Beethoven from a peripheral point of view” conferring to this the ‘fact’ that “Romantic specialists are never truly satisfied with Beethoven”
This would mean that:
1) The only way to be ‘fully’ and ‘truly’ satisfied with Beethoven is listening his music with period instruments and faster tempos, which is practically nonsense because
a)From the quantitative point of view that is implied in the “fully”, I am (and many other people here) “more” satisfied with modern instruments; and
b), In the qualitative point of view, the term true (“truly satisfied”) is pointless here. As I’ve said long time ago, the only ‘true’ to be followed in any art is that of your own subjective pleasure. And I’d consider myself a true idiot by listening something ‘authentic’ that doesn’t please me.

PS: To me, the period instrument versions are the ones that sound ‘lame’ most of the times; not because of the tempo, but because of the weakness of the sound, particularly in the strings and brass. If the work to be performed require too much of intensity and power I’d certainly opt for a modern version. If not (sacred music, B’s 6th symphony, some of B’s chamber music, etc.) I could choose a PIV as an interesting second alternative. For Baroque music, though, I prefer PI by far and that is something I owe you, so thanks.

Luis.


[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 07-27-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Luis:
mmmm... I don't think so.


PS: To me, the period instrument versions are the ones that sound ‘lame’ most of the times; not because of the tempo, but because of the weakness of the sound, particularly in the strings and brass. If the work to be performed require too much of intensity and power I’d certainly opt for a modern version. If not (sacred music, B’s 6th symphony, some of B’s chamber music, etc.) I could choose a PIV as an interesting second alternative. For Baroque music, though, I prefer PI by far and that is something I owe you, so thanks.

Luis.

Perhaps we should set up a Romantic forum here as well!

Logically I don't see how you can disagree with Rod's position - you must admit it is odd to say that you prefer authentic instruments for Baroque music, and a handful of Classical works! Your arguments also prove Rod's assertion that you (and I don't mean you personally, rather everyone who dislikes the authentic movement) are approaching Beethoven from a Romantic perspective - you are used to the full blooded Mahler sound and anything else sounds lame to you. I don't think gut strings sound lame, rather warmer and less shrill - to my ears the woodwind (except the flute) and brass are more penetrating as authentic instruments.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Perhaps we should set up a Romantic forum here as well!

Logically I don't see how you can disagree with Rod's position - you must admit it is odd to say that you prefer authentic instruments for Baroque music, and a handful of Classical works! Your arguments also prove Rod's assertion that you (and I don't mean you personally, rather everyone who dislikes the authentic movement) are approaching Beethoven from a Romantic perspective - you are used to the full blooded Mahler sound and anything else sounds lame to you. I don't think gut strings sound lame, rather warmer and less shrill - to my ears the woodwind (except the flute) and brass are more penetrating as authentic instruments.

Couldn't have put it better myself Peter, indeed the chap makes my case for me! However, for those tired of my ranting, your idea of a Romantic Forum will be a good one - for I certainly will never visit it!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-27-2001).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
Couldn't have put it better myself Peter, indeed the chap makes my case for me! However, for those tired of my ranting, your idea of a Romantic Forum will be a good one - for I certainly will never visit it!

Oh, Rod, what would we do without you??!!!

Joy