Gergiev under pressure to dissociate himself from Putin

[Schenkerian]

Everybody is cancelling the Russian conductor because he won't criticize Putin and dissociate himself from that Botoxed, geriatric pygmy. Almost certainly those calling for this have zero understanding of the fact that you don't criticize a tyrant - especially if you value your friends and family. Having made a Mephistophelian pact, Gergiev won't renege on the deal because of this fact. Which is better? Being cancelled by the classical music establishment (welcome to the club!) or murdered and threatened by the tyrant?

[Peter]

Yes but that's in stark contrast to Vasily Petrenko (and others) who has issued a statement condemning the invasion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...yside-60589271

[Schenkerian]

Yes but that's in stark contrast to Vasily Petrenko (and others) who has issued a statement condemning the invasion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...yside-60589271

How do you 'unfriend' a tyrant? And live.

[Peter]

How do you 'unfriend' a tyrant? And live.

Perhaps by being a bit wiser in who you choose as friends in the first place? There are others who have been a bit braver https://theviolinchannel.com/leading...on-of-ukraine/

[Schenkerian]

Perhaps by being a bit wiser in who you choose as friends in the first place? There are others who have been a bit braver https://theviolinchannel.com/leading...on-of-ukraine/

Kissin can be brave; he lives in the UK. There's no doubt Gergiev has gussied up to Putin and this has cost him his reputation and a substantial portion of his income, but he's not in a position to renege on the deal. Imagine Saddam Hussain being rejected; he'd have pulled out his gun and shot the person in the head. Putin is no different. Same with that psychotic in North Korea.

I can now see Europe becoming involved; today's line in the sand was a fire at a nuclear power plant. This cannot stand.

[Peter]

Kissin can be brave; he lives in the UK. There's no doubt Gergiev has gussied up to Putin and this has cost him his reputation and a substantial portion of his income, but he's not in a position to renege on the deal. Imagine Saddam Hussain being rejected; he'd have pulled out his gun and shot the person in the head. Putin is no different. Same with that psychotic in North Korea.

I can now see Europe becoming involved; today's line in the sand was a fire at a nuclear power plant. This cannot stand.

What about Bolshoi Theatre General Director Vladimir Urin, and the Artistic Director of St Petersburg's Alexandrinsky Theatre Valery Folkin? Gergiev doesn't need to worry about his income, he has hundreds of millions of dollars stashed away in Swiss bank accounts, a bit like his hero?

[Quijote]

Yes but that's in stark contrast to Vasily Petrenko (and others) who has issued a statement condemning the invasion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...yside-60589271

Exactly. And let's not forget the more than 2,000 Russian anti-war protestors so far arrested for having the courage to stand up and be counted. I'm sure they value their friends and family.

[Schenkerian]

What about Bolshoi Theatre General Director Vladimir Urin, and the Artistic Director of St Petersburg's Alexandrinsky Theatre Valery Folkin? Gergiev doesn't need to worry about his income, he has hundreds of millions of dollars stashed away in Swiss bank accounts, a bit like his hero?

It's hard to see thousands of protestors in Moscow escaping the wrath of Putin and his secret police machine; they will indeed pay a very heavy price for their protests. I expect he'll do to them what he did with their opposition leader, who was poisoned on that flight and nearly died. They have very much to fear. Those people you mention will pay a heavy price, I'm betting. And when this happens we'll understand Gergiev and his cowardice. Vladimir Putin is a product of the mean streets, where he lived as a child before becoming a member of the KGB. One of the most ghastly human beings this planet has produced and yet it never stopped Europe stitching up a deal for a gas pipeline with him. Who is craven and who is not?

You know about Gergiev's money in those Swiss bank accounts??!! Did you also know that seizing assets of rich Russian oligarchs (and, by your reckoning of his millions, Gergiev must be one of these) will shortly see them all stripped of those assets? (i wouldn't be so hasty to trust the Swiss, BTW. Remember the Nazi boodle they hung onto for decades?) Gergiev has everything to lose whether he criticizes Putin or not and, if he does, his life could also be in danger. Stuck between a rock and a hard place. Yes, he should have shown more discernment in his choice of friends but, as my physician friend recently said (he lived under Soviet rule in Poland for 40 years) "the Russians can't help themselves". They're either incredibly brave or docile and compliant.

I suspect that centuries of authoritarian rule have led them to that very dark place. It's time for another Bolshevik Revolution.

Dr. Jordan Peterson has studied authoritarian rule in Russia and Germany for a long time; he concludes that the majority of us are kidding ourselves if we think we'd be one of the 'good guys'. Such is the force of the gun and mistrust between neighbours fostered by such regimes. A few brave people left Germany before WW2, including the Kleiber family, but most remained and were 'good little Germans'.

[Peter]

It's hard to see thousands of protestors in Moscow escaping the wrath of Putin and his secret police machine; they will indeed pay a very heavy price for their protests. I expect he'll do to them what he did with their opposition leader, who was poisoned on that flight and nearly died. They have very much to fear. Those people you mention will pay a heavy price, I'm betting. And when this happens we'll understand Gergiev and his cowardice. Vladimir Putin is a product of the mean streets, where he lived as a child before becoming a member of the KGB. One of the most ghastly human beings this planet has produced and yet it never stopped Europe stitching up a deal for a gas pipeline with him. Who is craven and who is not?

You know about Gergiev's money in those Swiss bank accounts??!! Did you also know that seizing assets of rich Russian oligarchs (and, by your reckoning of his millions, Gergiev must be one of these) will shortly see them all stripped of those assets? (i wouldn't be so hasty to trust the Swiss, BTW. Remember the Nazi boodle they hung onto for decades?) Gergiev has everything to lose whether he criticizes Putin or not and, if he does, his life could also be in danger. Stuck between a rock and a hard place. Yes, he should have shown more discernment in his choice of friends but, as my physician friend recently said (he lived under Soviet rule in Poland for 40 years) "the Russians can't help themselves". They're either incredibly brave or docile and compliant.

I suspect that centuries of authoritarian rule have led them to that very dark place. It's time for another Bolshevik Revolution.

Dr. Jordan Peterson has studied authoritarian rule in Russia and Germany for a long time; he concludes that the majority of us are kidding ourselves if we think we'd be one of the 'good guys'. Such is the force of the gun and mistrust between neighbours fostered by such regimes. A few brave people left Germany before WW2, including the Kleiber family, but most remained and were 'good little Germans'.

Gergiev is in a much better position than those brave protestors - he has the means and necessary connections to seek sanctuary in the west and could easily have left years ago along with his family. Gergiev’s close friendship with the Russian president, which began in the early 1990s, has drawn increasing criticism, particularly since the annexation of Crimea. In 2014, Gergiev was a signatory to an artists’ appeal that supported the annexation and in which he stated his clear support for Putin’s political views.

Edmund Burke wrote “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.”

[Schenkerian]

You're missing my point: I know Gergiev is friendly with the monster. My point is that you cannot UNFRIEND a monster. He may be able to leave for the west but I submit his career is already finished here, so it would be a life-saving exercise, just as I suggested from the beginning. And it's a sobering lesson to learn that musicians can be every bit as corrupt as the worst of us; just because they carry a baton doesn't mean they have a better set of values. My late father used to say "the morality and values of society run vertically through all the classes and not just horizontally through one". And it's important to remember that when Hitler was coming to power he was enthusiastically supported by academia, the middle class and the wealthy.

I fear this Ukraine catastrophe has all the makings of world war 3 and nothing Gergiev or any musician can do will change that. Those nuclear power plants are a line in the sand, and the monster knows it. I can only be thankful my 3 sons are too old (over 40) to be called into any theatre of war.

[Sorrano]

Weren't Richard Strauss and Karajan associated with the Nazi regime? They are in pretty good standing now with people.

[Schenkerian]

Weren't Richard Strauss and Karajan associated with the Nazi regime? They are in pretty good standing now with people.

Not sure about Strauss but Karajan's name is being scrubbed from Austrian streets - in Salzburg, I think. Otherwise, yes, in pretty good standing!!

[Peter]

You're missing my point: I know Gergiev is friendly with the monster. My point is that you cannot UNFRIEND a monster. He may be able to leave for the west but I submit his career is already finished here, so it would be a life-saving exercise, just as I suggested from the beginning. And it's a sobering lesson to learn that musicians can be every bit as corrupt as the worst of us; just because they carry a baton doesn't mean they have a better set of values. My late father used to say "the morality and values of society run vertically through all the classes and not just horizontally through one". And it's important to remember that when Hitler was coming to power he was enthusiastically supported by academia, the middle class and the wealthy.

I fear this Ukraine catastrophe has all the makings of world war 3 and nothing Gergiev or any musician can do will change that. Those nuclear power plants are a line in the sand, and the monster knows it. I can only be thankful my 3 sons are too old (over 40) to be called into any theatre of war.

Well I don't know why you criticised the organisations calling for Gergiev to condemn the invasion in the first place, what were they supposed to do? Do nothing and accept your view that the man has no choice and allow him to continue? By doing this they themselves were making a public statement that they would not put artistic values above moral considerations and this is to be welcomed. They knew that Gergiev would not comply and forced his hand. I agree it is sobering to realise that great artists can hold the most repugnant views (there are many historical examples) and that is why they need to be called out as Gergiev has been.

[Schenkerian]

I guess the world has cancellation fatigue; the never ending demand for somebody to lose a job, status, a voice, an opinion. What really matters is that people and countries need to stop doing business with the monster Putin. Stop stitching up deals for gas. The Crimea annexation is already several years old and it hasn't stopped the 'open for business' sign being responded to in Russia. It's just hypocritical. Supposing Gergiev says "stop bombing Ukraine". The conversation might go like this, "Vlad, you're a bad man and you need to pull your troops out of Ukraine. While you're at it, do the same in Crimea". It will work a treat. NOT. Sadly we live in the world of endless symbolism. Let audiences boycott the performances of Gergiev; hit him at the bottom line by all means. But it won't change a single thing. Thugs like Putin only understand the language and behaviour of other thugs; that's why he never acted when Trump was in power as he never knew what Orange Man was likely to do. Nobody did. He could compliment you one minute and in another knife you in the back.

[Peter]

We will have to agree to disagree on Gergiev, though we do actually agree that the situation is insane!