Troubled American Orchestras

[orpheus]

Originally posted by Marta:
Hi Orpheus.

First I din't say that there is not intellect in the great composers as Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, etc....of course they have great intelligence, and is also present in their works.
Is not about being intelligent or not, is about intent, is about of what IS that the composer wants to communicate.
I expressed my opinion, in which I see Music today as a reflection of our times, in which the main focus is objective.
About the expression of the contemporary composers, that you said they want to project, for ME is still an objective expression through a subjective medium, music. This is why is so difficult to agree in this subject, because no matters what, the medium of expression MUSIC is always subjective.
This is my perception and opinion.
Now, why then the majority of the audiences don't enjoy and connect with contemporary music?
Why when in a concert, when such works are played, people can't wait until is over.
I've been in many concets, and always is the same reaction from the audiences, and their comments is always the same,....to intellectual....or my gosh what a horrible music.
Orpheus, music should reach any person.
If contemporary music moves you, fine, but I don't think you are among the majority.

What I expressed is only my perception, as you have yours.


Marta


[This message has been edited by Marta (edited May 24, 2003).]

Hi Marta,

Well if we are going to start to talk in terms of majority - as if the measure of good music is a popularity contest - then I am afraid we are all on shaky ground. By that measure Michael Jackson is a better composer than Beethoven, simply because he sells more records, more people listen to that music etc. This is a perspecive I for one can't endorse.

Apart from that, perhaps you could give me some examples of this "horrible" music you are referring to...? It may well be that I agree with you, maybe not.

I also think your distinction between the objective and subjective is rather confusing, and philosophically a bit shaky. My own view on this is that there is only subjectivism, or at least that is all we can as humans know about - as all we can ever have is our own perspectives. But let's not get into that. Let's just say that even if I could concede that there is an objective reality, when you suggest that this reality is something that can be "expressed" through music, the very fact that it is being expressed would instantly bring it within the spere of individual perspective, making it subjective not objective. The idea of expressing objectivity is an oxymoron.

[Rod]

Originally posted by lysander:
[/B]" Time has a way of filtering out the great from the mediocre".


Peter, I agree with your quote above and I think it deserves to be entered onto the quotes page.[/B]

I'd agree as well, if only it were true. I suspect the problem CM has gotten itself into is largely to do with the fact that there has been NO FILTERING OUT OF THE MEDIOCRE WHATSOEVER.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited May 26, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'd agree as well, if only it were true. I suspect the problem CM has gotten itself into is largely to do with the fact that there has been NO FILTERING OUT OF THE MEDIOCRE WHATSOEVER.

Rod,
I would agree with this since I have heard many mediocre works, but mainly in the performance, not the music itself. And since there are literally hundreds of composers whose music we have never heard, we can't know if the reason for this is that they were mediocre or they were filtered for some other reason. In "pop" music, when they speak of "greatest hits" they are talking about 10-15 years worth of popularity, but we are looking at 300+ years, and I have always thought that it was a "cream rises to the top" sort of thing in terms of what we hear now. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards,
Gurn

[lysander]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'd agree as well, if only it were true. I suspect the problem CM has gotten itself into is largely to do with the fact that there has been NO FILTERING OUT OF THE MEDIOCRE WHATSOEVER.

Hi Rod,
The quote appealed to me as it can also be thought of in a wider sense.
Indeed we are aware of the inherent quality in CM, but I admitt there is a difficulty because with the explosion of the interest in CM a lot of minor work has found its way into the catalogue.
OK, it is nice to hear Elizabethan madrigals and lesser musical figures fro the 18th century brought into prominence, but sheer weight of material now that has been committed to recording means that a new comer is swamped with choice, they would find it difficult to discern between the great and mediocre, so that Charpentier - an important and delightful composer can even be thought of in some circles equal with Handel.
I do think however, that the greats will establish a natural hegemony over the lesser works.



[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 26, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
I would agree with this since I have heard many mediocre works, but mainly in the performance, not the music itself.
Gurn

I suggest in many cases it is the music itself that stinks, and no performance however good can save it!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'd agree as well, if only it were true. I suspect the problem CM has gotten itself into is largely to do with the fact that there has been NO FILTERING OUT OF THE MEDIOCRE WHATSOEVER.

I totally disagree! There is a huge amount of music that is no longer part of the standard repertoire and not all of it bad - composers such as Peri, Froberger, Boldieu, Adam, Sweelinck, Loewe, Franz Beck, Leopold Hofmann and Johann Vanhal for example are hardly household names and I wonder how much of their music you are familiar with? The opera repertoire is vast and you should know just with Handel how little is part of the standard repertoire - Haydn's operas are never performed, most people don't even realise he was an opera composer!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

I sing , with the choir, a work of Dutch composer Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck they are a set of 7 cannons in latin. I also know his motets,but he wrote wonderful music for the organ,heavenly one could say.

[spaceray]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
[B]"classical" music, or Art Music, as I prefer...

So Gurn Blanston, what's all that other music then? "artless music"

[Marta]

Originally posted by orpheus:
Hi Marta,

Well if we are going to start to talk in terms of majority - as if the measure of good music is a popularity contest - then I am afraid we are all on shaky ground. By that measure Michael Jackson is a better composer than Beethoven, simply because he sells more records, more people listen to that music etc. This is a perspecive I for one can't endorse.

Apart from that, perhaps you could give me some examples of this "horrible" music you are referring to...? It may well be that I agree with you, maybe not.

I also think your distinction between the objective and subjective is rather confusing, and philosophically a bit shaky. My own view on this is that there is only subjectivism, or at least that is all we can as humans know about - as all we can ever have is our own perspectives. But let's not get into that. Let's just say that even if I could concede that there is an objective reality, when you suggest that this reality is something that can be "expressed" through music, the very fact that it is being expressed would instantly bring it within the spere of individual perspective, making it subjective not objective. The idea of expressing objectivity is an oxymoron.

Hi Orpheus.

I thought this is a site for *classical music* or what could be defined as Art of Music, and all my comments has been reffering to that and not pop music, which in my opinion has different intents and purposes.
The comment of...horrible music...is not mine, is what I have heard from the audience, after a contemporary work has been performed, and this audience did not attended the concert to listen the last pop music hit.
My comments were about the overall decline in the Art of Music. I never said that ALL contemporary music doesn't reach us or has no content (in my opinion), but I just expressed a general opinion of today's music, based in my own and very personal perception.
My understanding of subjectivity and objectivity is again based in my own perception, and you may very well differ with me, concepts are not absolutes, and each person will have a different understanding about them.
I respect your views, I won't say you are mistaken or wrong, we just have different interpretations and perceptions.

Marta


[This message has been edited by Marta (edited May 26, 2003).]

[orpheus]

Originally posted by Marta:
Hi Orpheus.

I thought this is a site for *classical music* or what could be defined as Art of Music, and all my comments has been reffering to that and not pop music, which in my opinion has different intents and purposes.
The comment of...horrible music...is not mine, is what I have heard from the audience, after a contemporary work has been performed, and this audience did not attended the concert to listen the last pop music hit.
My comments were about the overall decline in the Art of Music. I never said that ALL contemporary music doesn't reach us or has no content (in my opinion), but I just expressed a general opinion of today's music, based in my own and very personal perception.
My understanding of subjectivity and objectivity is again based in my own perception, and you may very well differ with me, concepts are not absolutes, and each person will have a different understanding about them.
I respect your views, I won't say you are mistaken or wrong, we just have different interpretations and perceptions.

Marta


[This message has been edited by Marta (edited May 26, 2003).]

Hi Marta,

I was talking about CM as well, I just wondered what contemporary music within CM you were thinking of.

As far as I know "objective" is usually defined as that which is true irrespective of individual perception, or true in the real world - such as say, scientific truths. "Subjective", as I understand, refers to the perceptions, perspectives, opinions etc of individuals. Much of philiosphy is concerned with working out the relationship between these two things. I don't think I was using any special definitions, just the standard ones. Sorry for the confusion.

Still, if I may, I would be interested to know what contemporary music you do, or do not like? I am interested to know, that's all.

[Gurn Blanston]

[quote]Originally posted by spaceray:
[b]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
"classical" music, or Art Music, as I prefer...

So Gurn Blanston, what's all that other music then? "artless music"

Space.
Well, if "artless" didn't already have a good definition, I would say yes. So let us just say that it is a different form of art, and since art can't be rated we shall cheat just this once and say "a lower form". ;-)
Best Regards,
Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
I suggest in many cases it is the music itself that stinks, and no performance however good can save it!

Rod,
But you claim to dislike so much that it is difficult to credit your adjective here. I quite agree with Peter's post, which echoes mine in more detail. For every piece of music that you have heard and said "it stinks", there are 100 that previous generations did the same to, and thus you and I never even got to pass judgement on. N'c'est pas?
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
But you claim to dislike so much that it is difficult to credit your adjective here. I quite agree with Peter's post, which echoes mine in more detail. For every piece of music that you have heard and said "it stinks", there are 100 that previous generations did the same to, and thus you and I never even got to pass judgement on. N'c'est pas?
Regards, Gurn

Considering the amount of music that has survived to this day, much never even published in its own time, I fail to understand this point.

I do not mean that we simply burn all the scores that Rod doesn't like.They can be stashed away for academics to waste time studying! However what I do mean is that performers should consider a little more what they are presenting for public consumption. I wouldn't mind Madam Butterfly being sacrificed if it meant a few more performances of Fidelio! Or, closer to home, I could even sacrifice an occasional Beethoven symphony or concerto or Missa Solemnis to hear something less often performed, like 'The Glorious Moment' cantata or Mass in C for example.

PS for those in the SE of England, Fidelio is being performed in June at Holland Park in London (Kensington). See:
www.rbkc.gov.uk/ohp2003season/fidelio/default.asp

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Rod:


I could even sacrifice an occasional Beethoven symphony or concerto or Missa Solemnis to hear something less often performed, like 'The Glorious Moment' cantata or Mass in C for example.


[/B]

I like to hear more of Beethoven's songs and song settings ,I think they are sadly overlooked by performers.
Maybe I'm missing something here ,I've read a couple of times ,various biographers knocking LVBs song writing ability.Say it isn't so!

[Joy]

I agree with some of the above. How many songs with be remembered that are very popular in this generation say 200 yrs. from now. I'm talking about The Beatles, people like that who were really popular in their time and made a name for themselves. Maybe they will be but not some of the other lesser known bands. Also I agree Spaceray, I wish some of the lesser known classical songs were performed too not just always the most famous that everyone's heard hundreds of times. They probably think that no one would show up and they might be right. But I, for one, would love to go to a concert and listen to some music that I've never heard before, (classical I mean).

------------------
'Truth and beauty joined'