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**Joy** · 05-21-2003, 02:49 PM

That is very sad indeed and it seems an on going trend all over the country. A few of The Phoenix Symphony members jumped ship also last season and the main violinist went to Detroit. Maybe the wages are too high, maybe not enough people are attending the symphony as before which is pretty sad, probably a combination of both.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

**Chaszz** · 05-21-2003, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by Joy:
That is very sad indeed and it seems an on going trend all over the country. A few of The Phoenix Symphony members jumped ship also last season and the main violinist went to Detroit. Maybe the wages are too high, maybe not enough people are attending the symphony as before which is pretty sad, probably a combination of both.

I think another factor is the sorry financial state of local and state governments after the bursting of the market bubble and the prolonged recession. So the gov'ts cannot meet their promises to the arts institutions. The governing politicians always spend heavily during boom times and then the gov'ts wind up broke when the boom is over and tax receipts fall. They never learn - or rather, the politicians know it all very well but can't avoid spending freely on services and projects to get themselves re-elected, and damn the future. It all goes to prove Churchill's dictum that the democratic form of government is the worst, except for the alternatives.

Opera organizations are also in trouble, casting doubt on current assertions that audiences for opera are young, vigorous and growing, in contrast to those for classical instrumental music. Perhaps worst, Chevron/Texaco has cancelled its support for Metropolitan Opera live Saturday broadcasts, after next season, after sixty-three years. I hope some other company can come up with the relatively modest $7 million a year needed to keep this going.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited May 21, 2003).]

**orpheus** · 05-21-2003, 07:47 PM

We should all go to much more concerts, and try to interest friends. That would help. There are so many factors influencing this trend - CD recordings, marginalisation of art music, the BigMac culture and a profit driven society etc. - but I do think the demise of professional orchestras is a forgone event now, it's just a matter of when not if. Sad but true!

Another key problem is that orchestras programme far too much standard repertoire (Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky etc) and not really anything genuinely new. This has turned them effectively into museums, and not living evolving artistic entities. The result is simply boring. Orchestras have only themselves to blame in my opinion.

Don't misunderstand me, I love the classics. But if I go to a concert, I for one want to hear something new, something I haven't heard before, and something that is reflective of the culture around me. If anything, the classics loose their ressonance when removed from a tradition which contitues to evolve and grow. They become static and without meaning.

**Joy** · 05-21-2003, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I think another factor is the sorry financial state of local and state governments after the bursting of the market bubble and the prolonged recession. So the gov'ts cannot meet their promises to the arts institutions. The governing politicians always spend heavily during boom times and then the gov'ts wind up broke when the boom is over and tax receipts fall. They never learn - or rather, the politicians know it all very well but can't avoid spending freely on services and projects to get themselves re-elected, and damn the future.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited May 21, 2003).]

This is all so true! The art world is surely suffering because of it. So are the National Parks, etc. Our state's Grand Canyon Park is in an 'over crowded, doesn't have enough funds' state of affairs right now, and they're putting on many, many restrictions, but I don't want to venture too far off topic.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

**spaceray** · 05-22-2003, 01:27 AM

In Quebec ,Canada the provincial government seems to be pumping a lot of money into not only the arts but education of the arts.Early music and authentic instruments
are all the rage as are new music production.
Dance is really big too and a great deal of new classical music is being written in this as well as just about every other form.
Check out cbc.ca

**Peter** · 05-22-2003, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by orpheus:

Another key problem is that orchestras programme far too much standard repertoire (Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky etc) and not really anything genuinely new. This has turned them effectively into museums, and not living evolving artistic entities. The result is simply boring. Orchestras have only themselves to blame in my opinion.

Don't misunderstand me, I love the classics. But if I go to a concert, I for one want to hear something new, something I haven't heard before, and something that is reflective of the culture around me. If anything, the classics loose their ressonance when removed from a tradition which contitues to evolve and grow. They become static and without meaning.

I don't agree! The day that orchestras have to stop playing the classics in order to attract an audience they might as well not exist. The whole point about the classics is that they are timeless and their greatness lies in their having something new to say each time we listen. The fault lies in the education system and in our culture which does nothing to encourage young people to explore the arts. The teaching of music in schools should be part of the curriculum, the wisdom of which was recognised by the ancient philosophers!

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'Man know thyself'

**orpheus** · 05-22-2003, 08:44 AM

Peter, I certainly agree with what you say about the failure of modern society to realise the importance of culture, and the education system in Britain certainly doesn't help - being obsessed with productivity.

But I don't know what you mean when you say the "point" of the classics is that they are "timeless". They may or may not be "timeless" - very vague term - but I can't honestly see how you can argue this is their raison d'tre. In anycase, the fact that they fail to engage with comtemporary audiences if anything proves the contrary - that their relevance is waning, not timeless at all.

[This message has been edited by orpheus (edited May 22, 2003).]

**Peter** · 05-22-2003, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by orpheus:
Peter, I certainly agree with what you say about the failure of modern society to realise the importance of culture, and the education system in Britain certainly doesn't help - being obsessed with productivity.

But I don't know what you mean when you say the "point" of the classics is that they are "timeless". They may or may not be "timeless" - very vague term - but I can't honestly see how you can argue this is their raison d'tre. In anycase, the fact that they fail to engage with comtemporary audiences if anything proves the contrary - that their relevance is waning, not timeless at all.

[This message has been edited by orpheus (edited May 22, 2003).]

By timeless I mean the opposite to what you are saying - i.e they are as relevant now as when they were written. I don't mean it is their 'raison d'etre' rather that it is a quality possessed by 'great' music. That young people do not relate to the music is not the fault of the music, it is as I say a result of a dreadful education mess combined with a culture of mediocrity.

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'Man know thyself'

**Chaszz** · 05-22-2003, 12:49 PM

Another article on the bleak outlook for classical music, this time from Scotland:
http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/s2.cfm?id=557552003

One curious feature of this whole business is that when we speak of the possible lack of relevance of classical music to our time, we say this music has been relegated 'to a museum', to imply that is a lifeless relic.
Yet art museums are thriving and attracting people in record numbers, for the Old Masters as well as the moderns!

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited May 22, 2003).]

**Joy** · 05-22-2003, 03:34 PM

Well, I for one, do not wish to go to a concert featuring 'new classical music'. I had to go through that with the Beethoven Festival that the Symphony held last year. Before every Beethoven symphony we had to sit through 'new' mini symphonies that were all quite awful. Just a bunch of noise and banging away at the instruments. One even featured a telephone ringing! If that's what they call the new stuff you can have it.
I'd much rather go to concerts and hear the 'old' great classics!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

**spaceray** · 05-22-2003, 03:50 PM

Joy,
I have to say that you must not let this bad experience turn you off all modern music.
I can promise you that lots of composers are working hard to bring beautiful melodies and stunning orchestrations to our ears.They would be heartbroken I'm sure to read your complaint knowing you are not likely to ever explore their symphonies and chamber works.
Just for instance I know that if you could hear a modern work that I sing with the choir titled "The Prairie Lily" by Canadian composer Murray Adaskin written at Canoe Lake Saskatchewan September 4th 1967 I'm sure that you would have a difficult time finding fault with it .

**orpheus** · 05-22-2003, 05:21 PM

Yes, I for one find Joy's view heartbreaking! There are so many fine composers living (or scraping one)today. They compose only to make the world a more interesting and enriching place, with little thought of reward. At least give them a chance.

**Gurn Blanston** · 05-23-2003, 12:29 AM

Fellow Forum Dwellers,
I not only find Joy's comments heartbreaking, but I am eqully disappointed that I agree with them 100% It saddens me no end that current "classical" music, or Art Music, as I prefer it, by and large sucks eggs. A trend begun early in the 20th century of "damn the listener", which was mirrored in the other arts as well, effectively killed modern art music. Atonality, bull@#$%. Who wants to spend an evening and a lot of hard-earned cash listening to that crap? The modern audience has spoken with their pocketbooks. And we, the hard-core heart of art music listeners do nothing to help when we become so refined and specialized that we will only purchase CD's by and go to concerts of, one or two composers, or not think about instruments that we may not like, or not even purchase CD's, instead downloading every freebie we can find. How are we supporting the art? And if not us, who? I realize that few of us have the financial resources to make any difference alone, but our combined buying power is substantial and can rejuvenate our favored sector of the industry. Like most of you, I make approximately half of the stated salary of any of the musicians listed in that article, but I do purchase at least 40 -60 CD's per year, more in a good year, so I try to do my part, as little as that may be. Orpheus is probably right, it is just a matter of time before we have to speak of the good old days, but we have no one to blame but ourselves. We can proselytize to those who don't know, instead of having them feel as though we are snobs, and do our share to support the art we love. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.

Regards to all,
Gurn

**spaceray** · 05-23-2003, 02:52 AM

I always buy the music(sheet music and scores)from the music shop and NEVER copy them nor will I use copied sheet music. I do not buy many CDs any more since my tastes are wide rangeing I do borrow a lot of CDs at the library and if I fall in love with it I will try to find it at the shops.
I also buy a lot of second hand sheet music,usually not so much that it is cheap but it is rare and one might not be able to find it ever again.

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