Troubled American Orchestras

[Marta]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
This is true if you mean deep subjectivity, but of more surface-like subjectivity there is no shortage, with all the pleasure and self-gratification that our self-obsessed society is always chasing. If you open a sophisticated gadget catalog like Sharper Image you will see everything from fans for the back of your neck to massages for your feet, and everything in between. God forbid one minute should be without pleasure for these coddled yuppies. So that is why on first glance I could not credit what you said.

Chaszz

Hi Chaszz.

You are confusing self-gratification which is and objective consecuence, with self-knowledge...there is HUGE difference between those two terms.
Self-knowlegde has nothing to do with objective self-gratification.
Self-knowledge is understanding of what we really are, is getting in touch with our essence, is awareness, to know what are our beliefs and the whys of those, to realize how we have been taken beliefs as truths, to understand how our beliefs are influencing our behaviour and perception, to understand our automatic reactions due to accepted beliefs in ourselves....I could go on and on, but the main point is how can we be aware of our actions and beliefs if we don't really know ourselves?
The more we know ourselves in the true meaning of the word, the more we know each other and the world.

Our society is preceisly self-indulgent and full of self-gratification because the focus is objective and not subjective.

Marta

[This message has been edited by Marta (edited May 23, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Marta (edited May 23, 2003).]

[orpheus]

Originally posted by Marta:
Interesting thread!

Now, as I said previously, for me Music is a 100% subjective Art, this is why in my opinion the majority of the 20th Century compositions don't reach us, or touch us (there some exceptions of course), they are mainly objective intellectual works with almost no subjective value. The composer is not trying to communicate his deep subjectivity but his intellect, and for me this is not Music.
This my opinion and perception.


Marta

Hi Marta,

I must disagree with you I am afraid. I can't really see how anyone could argue that - to take a familiar example -Schoenberg's free-atonal music was concerned with intellect above expession. Schoenberg very conciously aligned himself with the Expressionist movement. He was an acquaintance of Freud's, and was concerned with unlocking the dark secrets of the subconcious through his music. For me Schoenberg has always been one of the most romantic of all composers.

True the music is also very clever and pocesses great structural integrity. But I think you make a mistake in assuming that just because something is intellectual, that it can't also be something else - intuitive and emotive. In fact I would say that it is in truly great works of art that the two sides - brain and heart - become perfectly married such that it is impossible to tell where rationality ends and intuition begins.

In anycase the most intellectual of all composers - in my opinion - was J S Bach. But I'd don't feel the music is any less emotive or expressive for that. I also think our beloved Beethoven displays a consistently sharp intellect - more so that even Schoenberg - and his music is simultaneosly the most passionate of all!

I also think you make a mistake in suggesting that modern composers are not interested in expression. I think you'll find that most of them are concerned primarily with this.

[Marta]

Originally posted by orpheus:
Hi Marta,

I must disagree with you I am afraid. I can't really see how anyone could argue that - to take a familiar example -Schoenberg's free-atonal music was concerned with intellect above expession. Schoenberg very conciously aligned himself with the Expressionist movement. He was an acquaintance of Freud's, and was concerned with unlocking the dark secrets of the subconcious through his music. For me Schoenberg has always been one of the most romantic of all composers.

True the music is also very clever and pocesses great structural integrity. But I think you make a mistake in assuming that just because something is intellectual, that it can't also be something else - intuitive and emotive. In fact I would say that it is in truly great works of art that the two sides - brain and heart - become perfectly married such that it is impossible to tell where rationality ends and intuition begins.

In anycase the most intellectual of all composers - in my opinion - was J S Bach. But I'd don't feel the music is any less emotive or expressive for that. I also think our beloved Beethoven displays a consistently sharp intellect - more so that even Schoenberg - and his music is simultaneosly the most passionate of all!

I also think you make a mistake in suggesting that modern composers are not interested in expression. I think you'll find that most of them are concerned primarily with this.

Hi Orpheus.

First I din't say that there is not intellect in the great composers as Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, etc....of course they have great intelligence, and is also present in their works.
Is not about being intelligent or not, is about intent, is about of what IS that the composer wants to communicate.
I expressed my opinion, in which I see Music today as a reflection of our times, in which the main focus is objective.
About the expression of the contemporary composers, that you said they want to project, for ME is still an objective expression through a subjective medium, music. This is why is so difficult to agree in this subject, because no matters what, the medium of expression MUSIC is always subjective.
This is my perception and opinion.
Now, why then the majority of the audiences don't enjoy and connect with contemporary music?
Why when in a concert, when such works are played, people can't wait until is over.
I've been in many concets, and always is the same reaction from the audiences, and their comments is always the same,....to intellectual....or my gosh what a horrible music.
Orpheus, music should reach any person.
If contemporary music moves you, fine, but I don't think you are among the majority.

What I expressed is only my perception, as you have yours.


Marta


[This message has been edited by Marta (edited May 24, 2003).]

[spaceray]

Originally posted by orpheus:
Hi Marta,

I must disagree with you I am afraid. I can't really see how anyone could argue that - to take a familiar example -Schoenberg's free-atonal music was concerned with intellect above expession. Schoenberg very conciously aligned himself with the Expressionist movement. He was an acquaintance of Freud's, and was concerned with unlocking the dark secrets of the subconcious through his music. For me Schoenberg has always been one of the most romantic of all composers.

True the music is also very clever and pocesses great structural integrity. But I think you make a mistake in assuming that just because something is intellectual, that it can't also be something else - intuitive and emotive. In fact I would say that it is in truly great works of art that the two sides - brain and heart - become perfectly married such that it is impossible to tell where rationality ends and intuition begins.

In anycase the most intellectual of all composers - in my opinion - was J S Bach. But I'd don't feel the music is any less emotive or expressive for that. I also think our beloved Beethoven displays a consistently sharp intellect - more so that even Schoenberg - and his music is simultaneosly the most passionate of all!

I also think you make a mistake in suggesting that modern composers are not interested in expression. I think you'll find that most of them are concerned primarily with this.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by orpheus:
But I think you make a mistake in assuming that just because something is intellectual, that it can't also be something else - intuitive and emotive. In fact I would say that it is in truly great works of art that the two sides - brain and heart - become perfectly married such that it is impossible to tell where rationality ends and intuition begins.


I also think you make a mistake in suggesting that modern composers are not interested in expression. I think you'll find that most of them are concerned primarily with this.

This was so well said orpheus,I heard a piece of music at a concert last night it was titled Anthem: Passing of the Claimant,from a text by Chidiock Tichbourn (help me here Lysander) Written with his own hand in the Tower before his execution,he was condemned (tho' only a boy) in a plot to kill Queen Mary .

The Music was composed by Canadian Rodney Sharman(b1958) in 1994.
This was as beautiful as any ancient madrigal but yet not at all the same.It was for six voices.
Here is the text:
My prime of youth but is a frost of cares,My feast of joy is but a dish of pain,
My crop of corn is but a field of tares,
And all my gooded is but vain hope of gain;
The day is fled and yet I saw no sun,And now I live and now my life is done!

My spring is past ,and yet it hath not sprung,My fruit is dead,and yet the leaves of green,
My youth is past,and yet I am but young,
I saw the world and yet I was not seen;
My thread is cut and yet it is not spun,
And now I live,and now my life is done!

I sought for death,and found it in the wombe,
A lookt for life, and yet it was a shade,
I trade the ground and yet it was my tombe,
And now I dye,and now I am but made:
The glass is full and yet my glass is run,
And now I live and now my life is done.


This music was as fresh and lovely as a spring day in the rainforest!

[lysander]

Hi, Spaceray,
Sounds like you really enjoyed the concert.
I'd love to have heard it.

History is not sure of the part Chidiock Tichborne played in the mad conspiracy to do away with Queen Elizabeth 1st.

Chidiock joined a group of conspirators in 1586, but the conspiracy were discovered in time, most of the conspirators of course fled, but Chidiock remained in London because of an injured leg, was captured and taken to the Tower. He was tried and pled guilty and executed for treason.
In a grim finale, history relates, he was -
"disembowelled before his life was extinct"
and the news of the barbarity reached the ears of Queen Elizabeth, who forbade the recurrence.
To his wife on the eve of his execution he wrote the poem which you heard sung at the concert. Quite fascinating!



[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 25, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Marta:
Hi Orpheus.

Why when in a concert, when such works are played, people can't wait until is over.
I've been in many concets, and always is the same reaction from the audiences, and their comments is always the same,....to intellectual....or my gosh what a horrible music.

I've spent many a minute at CM concerts looking at my watch and wishing I were somewhere else. Sometimes the unlearned masses are more astute than those born and bred into classical music, for the latter are sometimes so close to the genre they can't tell good from bad, and believe me there is a lot of bad music to be played on the fiddle masquarading as art, and I'm not just talking about 'modern' CM either!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
and believe me there is a lot of bad music to be played on the fiddle masquarading as art, and I'm not just talking about 'modern' CM either!

We've been here before and you're talking about anything that doesn't come signed by Handel or Beethoven! I agree that a lot of bad music was written in the 18th and 19th centuries but not generally by the composers whose reputations have grown over time (i.e the more famous ones!). Time has a way of filtering out the great from the mediocre.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
We've been here before and you're talking about anything that doesn't come signed by Handel or Beethoven!

Yes I recall your many recurring attempts to simplify my position in this respect. However, it appears to be a crime to have discernment in the world of classical music. The few musicians I know personally seem to like anything and everything (except Handel, of course).

Originally posted by Peter:

Time has a way of filtering out the great from the mediocre.

Well, apparently not as far as I am concerned and perhaps those others who are no-longer attending concerts. I've been in London 17 years and I am still waiting for certain Beethoven pieces to be performed, yet copious amounts of utter tosh are provided for public consumption on a regular basis.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited May 25, 2003).]

[lysander]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[B] We've been here before and you're talking about anything that doesn't come signed by Handel or Beethoven! I agree that a lot of bad music was written in the 18th and 19th centuries but not generally by the composers whose reputations have grown over time (i.e the more famous ones!).


" Time has a way of filtering out the great from the mediocre".


Peter, I agree with your quote above and I think it deserves to be entered onto the quotes page.

There are talented composers of any particular age however, who have not withstood the test of time.
Hummel for instance who was a talented composer whose stock has risen in recent years, but more well know in Beethoven's time. Hummel was an interesting figure, a pupil of Mozart and Haydn, and really much the last representative of classicism.
Not much is known about him, maybe I am wrong. He has been featured on BBC classical radio 3 as composer of the week.




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 25, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:

There are talented composers of any particular age however, who have not withstood the test of time.
Hummel for instance who was a talented composer whose stock has risen in recent years, but more well know in Beethoven's time. Hummel was an interesting figure, a pupil of Mozart and Haydn, and really much the last representative of classicism.
Not much is known about him, maybe I am wrong. He has been featured on BBC classical radio 3 as composer of the week.

You must be psychic! I was thinking of Hummel as I posted that. He is an interesting composer who though not in the first rank produced some quality music that should be heard more often - I have his B major and A minor piano concertos and though you say he was the last of the classical composers I actually think he was one of the first Romantics - his piano writing definitely anticipates Chopin and was obviously influenced by Field.

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'Man know thyself'

[lysander]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[b] You must be psychic! I was thinking of Hummel as I posted that. He is an interesting composer who though not in the first rank produced some quality music that should be heard more often - I have his B major and A minor piano concertos and though you say he was the last of the classical composers I actually think he was one of the first Romantics - his piano writing definitely anticipates Chopin and was obviously influenced by Field.


That is interesting. I suppose we can think of Hummel as playing Marlowe to Beethoven's Shakespeare - A very good artist totally overshadowed by a contemporary Titanic Genius.




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 25, 2003).]

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Peter:
... obviously influenced by Field.

Please be kind enough to supply a first name for this composer? Do you mean John Field b 1782 d1837 the Irish composer?

[Gurn Blanston]

Since I have only read about Hummel and never heard him, that says 2 things to me;
1) You are right, he should be heard more since any quality composer should be heard, especially one who went to the trouble to carry aroud the name "Nepomuk" all his life ;-)

2) Rosen calls him to be at the beginning of the Romantic, using him as one of the example peers of the early style of Beethoven and saying in essence "if he hadn't shifted back towards classical style at the turn of the century he could have ended up a romantic like Hummel and (Weber?).

Why his music is not more generally available is beyond me; we complain about the lack of new composers, and haven't even scratched the surface of the old ones yet!!

Regards,
Gurn

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Please be kind enough to supply a first name for this composer? Do you mean John Field b 1782 d1837 the Irish composer?

Yes, by all accounts though not a very pleasant man, jealous of Chopin and drank himself to an early grave in Russia!

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'Man know thyself'