Troubled American Orchestras

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Fellow Forum Dwellers,
I not only find Joy's comments heartbreaking, but I am eqully disappointed that I agree with them 100% It saddens me no end that current "classical" music, or Art Music, as I prefer it, by and large sucks eggs. A trend begun early in the 20th century of "damn the listener", which was mirrored in the other arts as well, effectively killed modern art music. Atonality, bull@#$%. Who wants to spend an evening and a lot of hard-earned cash listening to that crap? The modern audience has spoken with their pocketbooks. And we, the hard-core heart of art music listeners do nothing to help when we become so refined and specialized that we will only purchase CD's by and go to concerts of, one or two composers, or not think about instruments that we may not like, or not even purchase CD's, instead downloading every freebie we can find. How are we supporting the art? And if not us, who? I realize that few of us have the financial resources to make any difference alone, but our combined buying power is substantial and can rejuvenate our favored sector of the industry. Like most of you, I make approximately half of the stated salary of any of the musicians listed in that article, but I do purchase at least 40 -60 CD's per year, more in a good year, so I try to do my part, as little as that may be. Orpheus is probably right, it is just a matter of time before we have to speak of the good old days, but we have no one to blame but ourselves. We can proselytize to those who don't know, instead of having them feel as though we are snobs, and do our share to support the art we love. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.

Regards to all,
Gurn

But how do you know how much we are spending on cds and music Gurn? I can assure you I have a varied cd collection to rival most stores' classical departments! As for music I always go for Urtext editions as much as possible which is the most expensive way of doing it! As a music teacher I also encourage my pupils to listen to classical music, then of course there is this site which gets around 10,000 hits a week being on the 1st pages of the top search engines - so I think I've done my bit to promote 'Art Music' and I'm sure most of the members here also make significant contributions via concert attendance and cd purchase. I'm struck in fact by the enormous variety of musical tastes members of this site have from Josquin to Ives and by the knowledge, enthusiasm and love for good music many have.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I also buy a lot of second hand sheet music,usually not so much that it is cheap but it is rare and one might not be able to find it ever again.

I also use the second hand shops which if you find a good one are a treasure house of now unavailable material.

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'Man know thyself'

[orpheus]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Fellow Forum Dwellers,
I not only find Joy's comments heartbreaking, but I am eqully disappointed that I agree with them 100% It saddens me no end that current "classical" music, or Art Music, as I prefer it, by and large sucks eggs. A trend begun early in the 20th century of "damn the listener", which was mirrored in the other arts as well, effectively killed modern art music. Atonality, bull@#$%. Who wants to spend an evening and a lot of hard-earned cash listening to that crap? The modern audience has spoken with their pocketbooks. And we, the - heart of art music listeners do nothing to help when we become so refined and specialized that we will only purchase CD's by and go to concerts of, one or two composers, or not think about instruments that we may not like, or not even purchase CD's, instead downloading every freebie we can find. How are we supporting the art? And if not us, who? I realize that few of us have the financial resources to make any difference alone, but our combined buying power is substantial and can rejuvenate our favored sector of the industry. Like most of you, I make approximately half of the stated salary of any of the musicians listed in that article, but I do purchase at least 40 -60 CD's per year, more in a good year, so I try to do my part, as little as that may be. Orpheus is probably right, it is just a matter of time before we have to speak of the good old days, but we have no one to blame but ourselves. We can proselytize to those who don't know, instead of having them feel as though we are snobs, and do our share to support the art we love. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.

Regards to all,
Gurn

Gurn, I am sad to hear you find much of the music I sincerely love unlistenable. What about Schoeberg's free-atonal music like Pierrot Luniare, Erwartung, 5 orchestral pieces op.16? Surely you can't think these are awful. Of course I would agree that Schoeberg's serial music is not as good as his earlier music, but that seems more a matter of a creative problem than anything else. Serialism in the hands of Berg becomes somehing very beautiful indeed. There are also some very fine living composers, such as Ligeti - perhaps the greatest in my opinion - and also Birtwistle, Scarrno, Carter.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by orpheus:
Gurn, I am sad to hear you find much of the music I sincerely love unlistenable. What about Schoeberg's free-atonal music like Pierrot Luniare, Erwartung, 5 orchestral pieces op.16? Surely you can't think these are awful. Of course I would agree that Schoeberg's serial music is not as good as his earlier music, but that seems more a matter of a creative problem than anything else. Serialism in the hands of Berg becomes somehing very beautiful indeed. There are also some very fine living composers, such as Ligeti - perhaps the greatest in my opinion - and also Birtwistle, Scarrno, Carter.

Oooo! Another Ligeti fan! And what do you think of Penderecki? He's been one of my favorite current composers.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
But how do you know how much we are spending on cds and music Gurn? I can assure you I have a varied cd collection to rival most stores' classical departments! As for music I always go for Urtext editions as much as possible which is the most expensive way of doing it! As a music teacher I also encourage my pupils to listen to classical music, then of course there is this site which gets around 10,000 hits a week being on the 1st pages of the top search engines - so I think I've done my bit to promote 'Art Music' and I'm sure most of the members here also make significant contributions via concert attendance and cd purchase. I'm struck in fact by the enormous variety of musical tastes members of this site have from Josquin to Ives and by the knowledge, enthusiasm and love for good music many have.

Surely so Peter, but in my experience you are the exception to the rule. I have communed both on and off line with hundreds of music lovers, and they generally (as is human nature) prefer to get what they can for nothing. This is fine, but it is like not voting, you have no right to complain about the incumbent. Of course we all spend some money, I'm not saying otherwise, but there are not a lot of us out here in the lunatic fringe of classical music, so it behooves us to help ourselves as much as we can, no one else is going to do it.
Regards, Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by orpheus:
Gurn, I am sad to hear you find much of the music I sincerely love unlistenable. What about Schoeberg's free-atonal music like Pierrot Luniare, Erwartung, 5 orchestral pieces op.16? Surely you can't think these are awful. Of course I would agree that Schoeberg's serial music is not as good as his earlier music, but that seems more a matter of a creative problem than anything else. Serialism in the hands of Berg becomes somehing very beautiful indeed. There are also some very fine living composers, such as Ligeti - perhaps the greatest in my opinion - and also Birtwistle, Scarrno, Carter.

Orpheus,
Aw hell, I was just being controversial in order to get some peoples' attention. There are some fine living composers, I know that and agree. I even like some early 20th century stuff like early Berg, and Prokofiev, and Shostokovich too, it is just not my preferred era because I like melody, I like harmonic variety, I like to be drawn in to the music, not pushed out, in short, I like the Classical Era first, the Romantic second. I don't NOT listen to other music, in fact have a substantial amount of Baroque and probably 25 CD's worth of 20th century, they are just not my favorites. A whole evening of tone rows, I swear I'd kill myself. ;-))
Regards,
Gurn

[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited May 23, 2003).]

[orpheus]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

Oooo! Another Ligeti fan! And what do you think of Penderecki? He's been one of my favorite current composers.

Penderecki is ok, but I would have to say Lutuslawski is a much finer Polish composer, although of course he's sadly dead now. Ligeti for me just stands out a mile from all the others. His music for me is at the same time intelligent, witty and ironic, subtle, full of energy and most of all... just beautiful. Boulez I also think is a very fine composer, but since he started conducting he has hardly written anything for over 20 years.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Peter:
As for music I always go for Urtext editions as much as possible which is the most expensive way of doing it!

Yes I always buy the Urtext if possible,they are sometimes twice the cost,but worth it!There is a lot of bad music out there and if one is a novice it's easy to your hands on the wrong thing.
And Peter there are not enough words of gratitude I could use to say just how much this site and the friends I have made on it has meant to me.Taking up piano at my age is a daunting task and I have been well inspired to persue what might seem a pretty useless thing at this point.
This lively debate keeps my interest keen.
Many many thanks indeed.

[Joy]

Originally posted by orpheus:
Yes, I for one find Joy's view heartbreaking! There are so many fine composers living (or scraping one)today. They compose only to make the world a more interesting and enriching place, with little thought of reward. At least give them a chance.

All right, fair is fair. I should try and have more of an open mind and won't let my past experiences mar my future ones. There is at least some 20th century music I enjoy
although when I attend concerts I think I'll stick with the tried and true until I have more ecperience with the 'newer' composers.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
And Peter there are not enough words of gratitude I could use to say just how much this site and the friends I have made on it has meant to me.Taking up piano at my age is a daunting task and I have been well inspired to persue what might seem a pretty useless thing at this point.
This lively debate keeps my interest keen.
Many many thanks indeed.

Well thank you and I hope you continue to get inspiration!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by spaceray:
[B]I always buy the music(sheet music and scores)from the music shop and NEVER copy them nor will I use copied sheet music. I do not buy many CDs any more since my tastes are wide rangeing I do borrow a lot of CDs at the library and if I fall in love with it I will try to find it at the shops.

B]

I also borrow CD's from the library (and videos too). I think this is a great way to try them out and then buy them if you are satisfied.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Marta]

Interesting thread!

The decline of the Art of Music in our times, is obviously detected in many aspects, as the case of the problems with the orchestras, the lower attendance to concerts by young people, the sadly but true increase of out of print recordings, and the overall musical quality of the compositions of the 20th Century (in which I agree with Gurn opinion).
Is my opinion that our society today is projecting what I call objective intellectualization, meaning that there is little subjective interest and awareness.
This is reflected in almost everything in our lifes. Is a culture that lives mostly objectively, from materialistic values to a lack of any deep self-knowledge.
The balance between objectivity and subjectivity got lost...
Now, as I said previously, for me Music is a 100% subjective Art, this is why in my opinion the majority of the 20th Century compositions don't reach us, or touch us (there some exceptions of course), they are mainly objective intellectual works with almost no subjective value. The composer is not trying to communicate his deep subjectivity but his intellect, and for me this is not Music.
This my opinion and perception.


Marta

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Joy:
All right, fair is fair. I should try and have more of an open mind and won't let my past experiences mar my future ones. There is at least some 20th century music I enjoy
although when I attend concerts I think I'll stick with the tried and true until I have more ecperience with the 'newer' composers.

I also Peter wish to thank you and Chris (and Rod for the music and the acerbity) for your efforts with such a fine site. I have branched out to other forums in the last few months but this still remains my favorite for the postings, the people and the debates. And I'd also like to thank you for your forbearance with my Wagner and Bach postings.

Chaszz

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"People become civilised, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt."

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited May 23, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Marta:
Interesting thread!

The decline of the Art of Music in our times, is obviously detected in many aspects, as the case of the problems with the orchestras, the lower attendance to concerts by young people, the sadly but true increase of out of print recordings, and the overall musical quality of the compositions of the 20th Century (in which I agree with Gurn opinion).
Is my opinion that our society today is projecting what I call objective intellectualization, meaning that there is little subjective interest and awareness.
This is reflected in almost everything in our lifes. Is a culture that lives mostly objectively, from materialistic values to a lack of any deep self-knowledge.
The balance between objectivity and subjectivity got lost...
Now, as I said previously, for me Music is a 100% subjective Art, this is why in my opinion the majority of the 20th Century compositions don't reach us, or touch us (there some exceptions of course), they are mainly objective intellectual works with almost no subjective value. The composer is not trying to communicate his deep subjectivity but his intellect, and for me this is not Music.
This my opinion and perception.


Marta

This is true if you mean deep subjectivity, but of more surface-like subjectivity there is no shortage, with all the pleasure and self-gratification that our self-obsessed society is always chasing. If you open a sophisticated gadget catalog like Sharper Image you will see everything from fans for the back of your neck to massages for your feet, and everything in between. God forbid one minute should be without pleasure for these coddled yuppies. So that is why on first glance I could not credit what you said.

Chaszz

[Gurn Blanston]

There is one phrase that makes me see red every time I hear it, it is quite simple, and yet evocative of our times. When I hear it in a commercial you can bet I won't buy that product. To wit;

"It's all about me"

Regards, Gurn

PS - Interesting thread so far, eh?