Stout returns with a question about Beethoven

[lysander]

Absolutely Peter, we all want to learn more about Beethoven, and indeed it would be narrow minded to let ones own beliefs get in the way, I think everyone here is far to intelligent for that.

Lysander.




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 22, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Like the undoubtedly astute Marta (and Peter, too), I have not and do not say that B was not spiritual. Nor that this spirituality does not spill out into his music. My contention is that spirituality is not religion, and vice versa. Frequently they are congruent, often they are not. As a modestly spiritual person myself, and also one who DOES abhor organized religion as a major cause of the evil in the world, I feel that it is fair to state and maintain this view. IMHO the Missa Solemnis is a great piece of music, it was written in the form that it was in order to be used for a specific purpose, and that does not make its creator necessarily a subscriber to the philosophies espoused by those who institute that purpose. Would this not be a suitably conciliatory agreement among us, to put this topic to bed? God, I hope so!! ;-))
Regards to all,
Gurn

PS - Spaceray, don't confuse Alfred with Albert. Only one of them was correct most of the time.
With highest esteem, Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Marta:
Hi Gurn.

Very well said. I agree with you 100%.
As you, I also have come to realize that our perceptions of the world will be a mirror of our own beliefs, we project those and then judge according to those beliefs.

Regards
Marta

Marta,
Thank you, dear lady, it is a pleasure when one is out on the edge to have such an obviously sensible person such as yourself publicly agree with you.
Best Regards,
Gurn

[Marta]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Marta,
Thank you, dear lady, it is a pleasure when one is out on the edge to have such an obviously sensible person such as yourself publicly agree with you.
Best Regards,
Gurn

Hi Gurn.

Is always a pleasure to be able to connect, as I did with you. Thank you.

Regards
Marta

[lysander]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Like the undoubtedly astute Marta (and Peter, too), I have not and do not say that B was not spiritual. Nor that this spirituality does not spill out into his music. My contention is that spirituality is not religion, and vice versa. Frequently they are congruent, often they are not. As a modestly spiritual person myself, and also one who DOES abhor organized religion as a major cause of the evil in the world, I feel that it is fair to state and maintain this view. IMHO the Missa Solemnis is a great piece of music, it was written in the form that it was in order to be used for a specific purpose, and that does not make its creator necessarily a subscriber to the philosophies espoused by those who institute that purpose. Would this not be a suitably conciliatory agreement among us, to put this topic to bed? God, I hope so!! ;-))
Regards to all,
Gurn

PS - Spaceray, don't confuse Alfred with Albert. Only one of them was correct most of the time.
With highest esteem, Gurn

Gurn,
Please bear with me while I explore this fascinating subject further.
We acknowledge that the Missa was written for a specific purpose and followed the Roman Catholic form of worship.
It is also Beethoven's wonderful hymn of praise to the glory of god and the betterment of humankind.
The underlying idea behind the Missa Solemnis is the impact of the almighty divinity on individuals who can only vaguely percieve his unatainable greatness.
The great thing is - Who did create it, Beethoven or God?
Don't forget that the whole idea of genius means to be filled by the spirit. But where does the spirit come from? Can we say that all great artists ar vehicles or mediums for the higher powers. This is where 'B' fits in.
This was certainly Goethe's and Schopenhauer's view and I think Beethoven was a humble enough man if you had asked him to intimate that his musical powers were God given, which he used to glorify the dignity of the human spirit. Also we should not forget the role of Romanticism here, for Wordsworth, I guess the high priest of romanticism, literally refered to man in nature as partaking of a holy communion with God. In his poem, Tintern Abbey, nature is seen as the great force and healer in man's life. Wordsworth sees man as taking a kind of holy communion in nature which renews man through his beauty and power and through which we are reunited with.
I would make a case that Beethoven did see himself as a medium for God, or the universal mind, and you can tell this by looking at the joyous sense of abandonment in the 9th Symphony and the Choral Fantasia, and the sense had been filled with the spirit of the universe, (the higher powers).
It depends how you define art, but I would respectfully adopt Nietsche's formula - that man must always be surpassing himself and that is sublimely what Beethoven is doing!

Lysander.


[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 23, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:

Gurn,
Please bear with me while I explore this fascinating subject further.
We acknowledge that the Missa was written for a specific purpose and followed the Roman Catholic form of worship.
It is also Beethoven's wonderful hymn of praise to the glory of god and the betterment of humankind.
The underlying idea behind the Missa Solemnis is the impact of the almighty divinity on individuals who can only vaguely percieve his unatainable greatness.
The great thing is - Who did create it, Beethoven or God?
Don't forget that the whole idea of genius means to be filled by the spirit. But where does the spirit come from? Can we say that all great artists ar vehicles or mediums for the higher powers. This is where 'B' fits in.
This was certainly Goethe's and Schopenhauer's view and I think Beethoven was a humble enough man if you had asked him to intimate that his musical powers were God given, which he used to glorify the dignity of the human spirit. Also we should not forget the role of Romanticism here, for Wordsworth, I guess the high priest of romanticism, literally refered to man in nature as partaking of a holy communion with God. In his poem, Tintern Abbey, nature is seen as the great force and healer in man's life. Wordsworth sees man as taking a kind of holy communion in nature which renews man through his beauty and power and through which we are reunited with.
I would make a case that Beethoven did see himself as a medium for God, or the universal mind, and you can tell this by looking at the joyous sense of abandonment in the 9th Symphony and the Choral Fantasia, and the sense had been filled with the spirit of the universe, (the higher powers).
It depends how you define art, but I would respectfully adopt Nietsche's formula - that man must always be surpassing himself and that is sublimely what Beethoven is doing!

Lysander.

Yes Lysander I agree that all great art is spiritual in origin, most of the great composers were aware of this and it is rare to find a non-believer such as Brahms - Dvorak was said to be quite despairing when he heard Brahms was an atheist! Haydn always signed his scores Gratis Deo (if my latin is correct!) and whenever anyone praised his works he would point upwards saying that it wasn't so much his work as God's. Bach is another of the very profoundly religious composers and Handel of course claimed to have had a vision of God whilst composing the Messiah.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
[B
PS - Spaceray, don't confuse Alfred with Albert. Only one of them was correct most of the time.
With highest esteem, Gurn[/B]

I hear ya Gurn ,since Christmas I have been hot on the trail of the lives of the composers ,I've read Purcell, Handel,Hadyn,Mendelssohn,Bach ,and am halfway through Mozart.I tried Wagner but couldn't stay interested (the writer was awful)and well the list of Beethoven books that I have read or tried to read(Barry Cooper, way way way over my head)is much too long to note here but just this pile has about a dozen books in it.Please don't worry.
I won't take everything I read as gospel but if I have any questions you know who I'll be asking.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I hear ya Gurn ,since Christmas I have been hot on the trail of the lives of the composers ,I've read Purcell, Handel,Hadyn,Mendelssohn,Bach ,and am halfway through Mozart.I tried Wagner but couldn't stay interested (the writer was awful)and well the list of Beethoven books that I have read or tried to read(Barry Cooper, way way way over my head)is much too long to note here but just this pile has about a dozen books in it.Please don't worry.
I won't take everything I read as gospel but if I have any questions you know who I'll be asking.

Space,
For B & M both, I recommend Solomon. He is generally accepted as factually correct, and the items requiring fine judgement and insight seem to be right on too.
Regards,
Gurn

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Space,
For B & M both, I recommend Solomon. He is generally accepted as factually correct, and the items requiring fine judgement and insight seem to be right on too.
Regards,
Gurn

I was under the impression that Solomon was considered rather a controversial figure!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
IMHO the Missa Solemnis is a great piece of music, it was written in the form that it was in order to be used for a specific purpose, and that does not make its creator necessarily a subscriber to the philosophies espoused by those who institute that purpose. Would this not be a suitably conciliatory agreement among us, to put this topic to bed? God, I hope so!! ;-))
Regards to all,
Gurn

Am I correct that B did quite a bit of research, as did his friends on his behalf, in order to determine the structure of a Mass? The Missa is very beautiful, but I always think of it as one of those genre's that was a challenge that B wanted to attempt and master. I hadn't really given any thought to his personal beliefs being injected into it as I have read so little about his religious beliefs.

In an slightly unrelated matter, a friend was telling me a reason she had heard for why some people have to endure so many hardships. It was because people are more likely to come to God during hardship and God wants to be close to certain people. It made me think of B.

S