As we know Beethoven was a deeply spiritual and religious person, and it is obvious that his religious beliefs were important to him, and what is important to Beethoven is important to me in order to understand his music and innerself - Even if he were a Buddhist.
As Peter stated," Beethoven's religious views are very relevant and fascinating".
The expression of his deeper religious convictions were conveyed in celestial tones, without equal in sincerity and dramatic power.
Presumably we are trying to engage in the process of trying to deepen our knowledge and appreciation of Beethoven's genius.
Rather like looking at a rose for instance, it is beautiful to the external eye. Understanding more about the structure, cells, photosynthesis, osmosis, etc. of this seemingly simple work of nature.
Surely vastly deepens our wonder, Joy and appreciation of this lovely creation.
By analogy with the composer, why are books written about that composer if we did not wish to understand the background and beliefs of the composer?.
May I give an instance; How is Handel's Messiah explicable in any sensible terms without knowing that Handel was a deeply pious Lutherin, with an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Bible?
Now we can listen to this uplifting music and I suppose to modern ears really take or leave the context in which it was written and the purpose in writing it.
I have to say, however, that Handel would of course that Handel would be horrified to think that non-christians were just simply listening to it as a series of pleasant sounds.
I freely acknowlege there is a problem here, but it really does not help a carefull analysis of what the composer it trying to say in these overt religious pieces to brush aside the major freight that is carried by the music. Sure, we can see them as generally spiritual pieces, no problem, and enjoy them in that way.
But we do a great desservice to the composer and his art to say the christian content was not uppermost in his mind.
Handel for instance, said that "he wrote the Messiah in response to a direct vision of the gates of heaven opening up before him".
Whether a person believes or not, ie. a listener in a sense is irrelevant - it is what the composer believes that is important.
Turning to Beethoven now, incidently Beethoven deeply revered and loved Handel and his music. It would simply be a gross insult to Beethoven to say his beliefs are unimportant! The great man himself would bellow at you to your face for suggesting that.
The problem is I think, we simply refuse to acknowledge the many sidedness of great geniuses.
Now we are still stuck with the idea of Beethoven as the great revolutionary figure, defying convention, hair flying, loud language, and perhaps boorish etc. Yes there is an element of that in Beethoven and we love him for it and the way in which he looked at things in new and refreshing ways, a very special individual who graces our lives once in every thousand years, like Shakespeare.
We cannot put 'B' in a box because he breaks out of our prejudices with the sheer tumultuous complexity of his energy and character.
I want to suggest that Beethoven was also deeply conservative in his thoughts on education, religion, and even the state.
QED. We know that he fell out of love with the whole revolutionary impetus of Western Europe after Napoleon became Emperor and there is plenty of evidence that in the last 15 years or so in his life, that he began to conceive a deep admiration for Englands constitutional Monarchy, because it gauranteed the liberty of the individual and the rights of the state church, and the cummunity of believers.
He began to see that organized religion and state church was the only thing between man and the abyss, and he had seen enough of the slaughterhouse that Napoleon and the French revolution had turned Europe into with their insane ideas about mans perfectability and starting society afresh.
Turning to the Missa Solemnis; It is really quite wrong to say that his religious views are not important here and indeed elswhere.
It is called a Solemn Mass because that's what Catholics call the table of the Lord.
All I am saying therefore, is that we dishounor Beethoven in not giving full scope to his religious beliefs whatever the exact nature they may have been. But clearly they had a Catholic flavour to say the least.
We should be carefull about reconstructing Beethoven in our own image as with any great artist,
just because we don't like an aspect or other of his public or private personna does not fit in with the 'free thinking image' of what we may have. But there again, history is always inconvenient, isn't it.
Beethoven's works are a God given miracle.
Lysander
[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 21, 2003).]
[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 23, 2003).]
As Peter stated," Beethoven's religious views are very relevant and fascinating".
The expression of his deeper religious convictions were conveyed in celestial tones, without equal in sincerity and dramatic power.
Presumably we are trying to engage in the process of trying to deepen our knowledge and appreciation of Beethoven's genius.
Rather like looking at a rose for instance, it is beautiful to the external eye. Understanding more about the structure, cells, photosynthesis, osmosis, etc. of this seemingly simple work of nature.
Surely vastly deepens our wonder, Joy and appreciation of this lovely creation.
By analogy with the composer, why are books written about that composer if we did not wish to understand the background and beliefs of the composer?.
May I give an instance; How is Handel's Messiah explicable in any sensible terms without knowing that Handel was a deeply pious Lutherin, with an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Bible?
Now we can listen to this uplifting music and I suppose to modern ears really take or leave the context in which it was written and the purpose in writing it.
I have to say, however, that Handel would of course that Handel would be horrified to think that non-christians were just simply listening to it as a series of pleasant sounds.
I freely acknowlege there is a problem here, but it really does not help a carefull analysis of what the composer it trying to say in these overt religious pieces to brush aside the major freight that is carried by the music. Sure, we can see them as generally spiritual pieces, no problem, and enjoy them in that way.
But we do a great desservice to the composer and his art to say the christian content was not uppermost in his mind.
Handel for instance, said that "he wrote the Messiah in response to a direct vision of the gates of heaven opening up before him".
Whether a person believes or not, ie. a listener in a sense is irrelevant - it is what the composer believes that is important.
Turning to Beethoven now, incidently Beethoven deeply revered and loved Handel and his music. It would simply be a gross insult to Beethoven to say his beliefs are unimportant! The great man himself would bellow at you to your face for suggesting that.
The problem is I think, we simply refuse to acknowledge the many sidedness of great geniuses.
Now we are still stuck with the idea of Beethoven as the great revolutionary figure, defying convention, hair flying, loud language, and perhaps boorish etc. Yes there is an element of that in Beethoven and we love him for it and the way in which he looked at things in new and refreshing ways, a very special individual who graces our lives once in every thousand years, like Shakespeare.
We cannot put 'B' in a box because he breaks out of our prejudices with the sheer tumultuous complexity of his energy and character.
I want to suggest that Beethoven was also deeply conservative in his thoughts on education, religion, and even the state.
QED. We know that he fell out of love with the whole revolutionary impetus of Western Europe after Napoleon became Emperor and there is plenty of evidence that in the last 15 years or so in his life, that he began to conceive a deep admiration for Englands constitutional Monarchy, because it gauranteed the liberty of the individual and the rights of the state church, and the cummunity of believers.
He began to see that organized religion and state church was the only thing between man and the abyss, and he had seen enough of the slaughterhouse that Napoleon and the French revolution had turned Europe into with their insane ideas about mans perfectability and starting society afresh.
Turning to the Missa Solemnis; It is really quite wrong to say that his religious views are not important here and indeed elswhere.
It is called a Solemn Mass because that's what Catholics call the table of the Lord.
All I am saying therefore, is that we dishounor Beethoven in not giving full scope to his religious beliefs whatever the exact nature they may have been. But clearly they had a Catholic flavour to say the least.
We should be carefull about reconstructing Beethoven in our own image as with any great artist,
just because we don't like an aspect or other of his public or private personna does not fit in with the 'free thinking image' of what we may have. But there again, history is always inconvenient, isn't it.
Beethoven's works are a God given miracle.
Lysander
[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 21, 2003).]
[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 23, 2003).]
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