Stout returns with a question about Beethoven

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:

If Peter thinks that we may all be wrong, then why need I bother posting? The truth is incomplete of course, as it is with any historical character. But nevertheless, sensible and reasonable influences from the known facts are permissable.


Am I alone in thinking that the Missa Solemnis is very Catholic?

Best regards,
Lysander.

Oh dear! I have only expressed my views also based on known facts and nowhere have I said Beethoven was not a religious man - he was a deeply spiritual person, but I do not believe that he adhered to the teachings of the catholic church in a strict sense, this is I am sure what Gurn meant. Schindler had this to say "It may be said with considerable certainty that his religious views rested less upon the creed of the church, than that they had their origins in deism. Without having a manufactured theory before him he plainly recognised the existence of God in the worls as well as the world in God." Haydn apparently misunderstood Beethoven's views and once called him an atheist, which he most certainly was not. Beethoven was known to have a keen interest in Hindu writings (copying out passages from it) and even possessed a copy of the banned Apocrypha which contained pre-christain texts not included in the bible. All this suggests to me that he had an open mind, the spirit of which I hope we can maintain here.

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'Man know thyself'

[lysander]

Originally posted by Peter:
Oh dear! I have only expressed my views also based on known facts and nowhere have I said Beethoven was not a religious man - he was a deeply spiritual person, but I do not believe that he adhered to the teachings of the catholic church in a strict sense, this is I am sure what Gurn meant. Schindler had this to say "It may be said with considerable certainty that his religious views rested less upon the creed of the church, than that they had their origins in deism. Without having a manufactured theory before him he plainly recognised the existence of God in the worls as well as the world in God." Haydn apparently misunderstood Beethoven's views and once called him an atheist, which he most certainly was not. Beethoven was known to have a keen interest in Hindu writings (copying out passages from it) and even possessed a copy of the banned Apocrypha which contained pre-christain texts not included in the bible. All this suggests to me that he had an open mind, the spirit of which I hope we can maintain here.

Peter, I do agree that Beethoven had an open mind. Nowhere did I accuse you of saying that Beethoven was not religious, perhaps what Gurn quite rightly meant was that 'B' did not like organized religion.
But it is my own feeling that 'B' was sympathetic towards the Catholic church.

Would you say that the Missa Solemnis is very catholic? I would like to know your thoughts.

Thankyou,
Lysander.



[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 19, 2003).]

[Marta]

"Beethoven composed the Missa Solemnis due to circunstances, and its purpose was to celebrate the exaltation of the Archduque Rudolf in the Arzobisp of Olmutz.
The Missa Solemnis could not fulfill its purpose because Beethoven did not finished it on time for the ceremony.
The Missa Solemnis shows a total separation from liturgia. It doesn't adapt effectively to the interpretation of the religious symbols expressed in the sacred books, to the demands of liturgia. The Missa Solemnis is a monumental work, magnifecent, but its conception demostrates to be more a work to be performed in a Concert hall than in a Church."

Sorry for my translation. This is taken from my study text, from my years when I was attending the Music Conservatory.


Marta

[Chris]

Sorry Gurn, I accidently deleted your message! Luckily, I saved a bit of it:

A person can live the most strictly moral life because he believes that in fact the "moral principles" which are espoused by many religions and co-opted by most as their own, are in fact the proper and courteous way to lead one's life, not from any belief in that religion, but because innately we know it is the right thing.

Interestingly enough, this is exactly the teaching of the Catholic Church.

[lysander]

Originally posted by Chris:
Sorry Gurn, I accidently deleted your message! Luckily, I saved a bit of it:

Interestingly enough, this is exactly the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Dear Gurn,
I loved your expression, and I think I kind of liked "griping your cookies" - gets the adrenalin going doesn't it!

Don't worry about giving me a hard time, I am really a tough cookie. Probably the scotts blood!
I do respect everyones views and try to maintain an open and searching mind.

I agree also what Chris is saying.

Sorry if this seems all rather hurried, but I must now dash off to work.

Best Regards
Lysander




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 19, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:

Peter, I do agree that Beethoven had an open mind. Nowhere did I accuse you of saying that Beethoven was not religious, perhaps what Gurn quite rightly meant was that 'B' did not like organized religion.
But it is my own feeling that 'B' was sympathetic towards the Catholic church.

Would you say that the Missa Solemnis is very catholic? I would like to know your thoughts.

Thankyou,
Lysander.

My response was to your remark "If Peter thinks that we may all be wrong, then why need I bother posting?" - I'm not quite sure what you are referring to or why my views should bother you that much! It can only be that I do not consider Beethoven was a devout Catholic which doesn't mean that I think he had no respect for the church. This is only my opinion based on the observation of his contemporaries, his books and his own words.

With the Missa Solemnis it is clear as Marta points out that Beethoven departed from the norm. He obviously intended it for concert performance where its message would reach a wider audience - this in itself indicates that he was writing for all humanity not just Catholics. 'From the heart, may it go to the heart'.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited May 20, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
Sorry Gurn, I accidently deleted your message! Luckily, I saved a bit of it:

Interestingly enough, this is exactly the teaching of the Catholic Church.

And other religions as well!

I wonder if Hans (alias Stout) who sparked this whole religious debate off has a view - we haven't heard from you on this after asking this provocative question!
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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited May 20, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Chris,
I am broken-hearted that my message got the shredder, but apparently it was read by the intended beforehand, so no harm done. It's just that all that deathless prose... ;-)

Lysander,
Yes, another americanism for your collection. Actually dates back to before my time, but so many of my interests do.

Stout,
You rascal, yes, where are you now? One doesn't frequently find where my goat is tied, but questions of religion should be out of bounds as they do, as Lysander says "get the adrenaline going" in me. Beethoven, IMHO, was moral, spiritual, believed in a God, and abhorred organized religion. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards to you all, and especially to Peter, who didn't "gripe my cookies",
Gurn

[lysander]

Originally posted by Chris:
Sorry Gurn, I accidently deleted your message! Luckily, I saved a bit of it:

Interestingly enough, this is exactly the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I agree Chris, but central to the Catholic faith is the moment of transubstantiation, and Beethoven deals with this in his Missa Solemnis in the Sanctus.

Pray put me right if I am wrong, but I feel that Beethoven's Mass is heavily influenced by his catholic background. By this I am not suggesting in any way that 'B' was a devout catholic, but respecting the Catholic liturgy and knowing that, during the mystery of the consecration, no vioce should be heard, Beethoven by might of his genius, has raised silence into sublimity.


Regards
Lysander


[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 21, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
One doesn't frequently find where my goat is tied, but questions of religion should be out of bounds as they do, as Lysander says "get the adrenaline going" in me.

Well we're not really discussing religion as such here for that very reason - but we are discussing Beethoven's religious views and I think this is not only relevant but fascinating!



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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:


Pray put me right if I am wrong, but I feel that Beethoven's Mass is heavily influenced by his catholic background. By this I am not suggesting in any way that 'B' was a devout catholic, but respecting the Catholic liturgy and knowing that, during the mystery of the consecration, no vioce should be heard, Beethoven by might of his genius, has raised silence into sublimity.


Regards
Lysander

Lysander - Obviously the Missa is influenced by his Catholic background and by the fact that he originally intended it for the enthronement ceremony of Archduke Rudolph as Archbishop of Olmutz. Cooper points out the complex symbolism in the score and especially Beethoven's use of the little word 'et' - he says that 'out of all the thousands of settings of the Mass text, Beethoven's is the only one to make something significant and motivic out of the numerous repetitions of this word, thereby emphasizing the many facets of Christian belief.'



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'Man know thyself'

[lysander]

Originally posted by Peter:
My response was to your remark "If Peter thinks that we may all be wrong, then why need I bother posting?" - I'm not quite sure what you are referring to or why my views should bother you that much! It can only be that I do not consider Beethoven was a devout Catholic which doesn't mean that I think he had no respect for the church. This is only my opinion based on the observation of his contemporaries, his books and his own words.

With the Missa Solemnis it is clear as Marta points out that Beethoven departed from the norm. He obviously intended it for concert performance where its message would reach a wider audience - this in itself indicates that he was writing for all humanity not just Catholics. 'From the heart, may it go to the heart'.

Please bear with me further Peter as I wish to explore the Missa a little further as I feel my original question to you was not fully dealt with.

My original question was; Would you say that the Missa Solemnis is very catholic?

Your replied; With the Missa , 'B' obviously intended it for concert performance where the message would reach a wider audience, from the heart to the heart etc. I am fine with all that and I know the Mass was initially inspired for the occasion of Archduke Rudolph's enthronement at Olmutz.
Forgive me for insisting Peter, but I asked your opinion as a more informed scholar than I probably ever will be, whether you thought that the Missa Solemnis is influenced by catholicism. Whatever your opinion may be will be respected as it helps me understand Beethoven better.
As you said somewhere that the point of this forum is not necessarily to agree but to find out what others think.

Like Beethoven, I could explore other religions and take notes of certain aspects that might appeal to me, but deep down I am a Roman Catholic, it is in me and nothing can change that, and my gut feeling is that deep down Beethoven remained deeply influenced by his catholic upbringing.
It is a nagging feeling I have.


May I quote here from the distinguished critique Vincent D'indy's book - Beethoven a critical Biography, 1912.
On dealing with the Missa he agrees that is is not liturgical music, but
"sacred music of the loftiest rank, and, further more, essentially Catholic music. We are very far from regarding with suspicion the good faith of those among Beethoven's historiographers who have sought to attach to this unique monument of religious art a purely philosophical significance - to set the Mass down as a work outside of Christian belief, as a manifestation of free thought (they have gone as far as that!); but not to recognize the very spirit of Catholicism in the tenderness wherewith the divine personages are enveloped, in the emotion accompanying the announcement of mysteries, is in itself proof of blindness - or ignorance.

How can one venture - even had the author not taken pains to tell us clearly - to assert that this entire Mass is not an ardent 'act of faith', that the Credo does not proclaim on every page 'I believe, not merely in a vague divinity, but in God of the Gospel and in the mysteries of the incarnation, the redemption , and life eternal'?. How gainsay the penetrating emotion - so new in music - which attends these affirmations, and which springs solely from a Catholic comprehension of the dogmas and mysteries?.
How, finally, can one misconstrue the piously meticulous care with which the sacred words are treated of the expressive accents which unveil their signification to those who can and will understand? For the rest, it suffices to know and to feel, in order to be convinced".

Vincent D'Indy, Beethoven, A critical Biography, 1912.


I firmly endorse his views.

Lysander.



[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 21, 2003).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by lysander:

I agree Chris, but central to the Catholic faith is the moment of transubstantiation, and Beethoven deals with this in his Missa Solemnis in the Sanctus.

Pray put me right if I am wrong, but I feel that Beethoven's Mass is heavily influenced by his catholic background. By this I am not suggesting in any way that 'B' was a devout catholic, but respecting the Catholic liturgy and knowing that, during the mystery of the consecration, no vioce should be heard, Beethoven by might of his genius, has raised silence into sublimity.


Regards
Lysander


[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 21, 2003).]

Good point, good point. I don't think Beethoven abhorred organized religion, but even if he did, he was certainly a big enough man to avoid pushing his own agenda in the composing of a Catholic Mass. That would have been the height of presumption, I think.

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:
Please bear with me further Peter as I wish to explore the Missa a little further as I feel my original question to you was not fully dealt with.

My original question was; Would you say that the Missa Solemnis is very catholic?

Your replied; With the Missa , 'B' obviously intended it for concert performance where the message would reach a wider audience, from the heart to the heart etc. I am fine with all that and I know the Mass was initially inspired for the occasion of Archduke Rudolph's enthronement at Olmutz.
Forgive me for insisting Peter, but I asked your opinion as a more informed scholar than I probably ever will be, whether you thought that the Missa Solemnis is influenced by catholicism. Whatever your opinion may be will be respected as it helps me understand Beethoven better.
As you said somewhere that the point of this forum is not necessarily to agree but to find out what others think.

Like Beethoven, I could explore other religions and take notes of certain aspects that might appeal to me, but deep down I am a Roman Catholic, it is in me and nothing can change that, and my gut feeling is that deep down Beethoven remained deeply influenced by his catholic upbringing.
It is a nagging feeling I have.

Lysander, you are probably in a better position than I to evaluate the Catholic influence on the Missa as you are a Catholic and I am not. My knowledge of the rituals and creed are limited and I can only discuss it in a musical context. The extent of Catholic influence in the Missa isn't the issue to me anyway as Beethoven was writing in an age of censorship and was hardly likely to produce a work for the enthronement of the Catholic Archduke Rudolph that didn't contain the fundamentals of Catholicism! Brahms was an atheist but still composed a requiem mass. I respect the fact that you are Catholic as I respect all religions and this is not the issue here.

I think we have to look at the wider picture and there is enough evidence to suggest that Beethoven respected the church, but that he looked elsewhere for his relationship with God, in nature and in music. Art for him was the way to the Godhead. We have this in his own words, in the passages from Hindu writings he copied out and in the books he possessed which included not only the Bible but the Hindu Vedas, Persian poetry and as I mentioned before the banned Apocrypha. Haydn was a devout Catholic, so why should he accuse Beethoven of being an atheist unless Beethoven had said something that led him to this wrong conclusion? Perhaps it was because Beethoven did not attend Church regularly?



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'Man know thyself'

[Marta]

Always our perceptions and opinions will be colored by our beliefs. Each of us see and interpret the world and others through our own lensses.
For me, beliefs are just that, we in essence are not our beliefs, a person can and does change his/hers beliefs through life.
Now, trying to label Beethoven in any religious or philosophical belief, is for me not only unimportant, but also a waist of time.
For me...it matters not...what Beethoven believed, no body can know with certainness what his deeply inner thoughts were, those belonged to himself and no one else.
For me, whatever he believed, doesn't change the fact that he was an exceptional human being, a musical genius, and that he let part of himself through his music to the world.

That was his legacy.


Marta