Stout returns with a question about Beethoven

[Suzie]

My second question is deeper. Are we able to explain why Beethoven could never have a relationship with a woman.


Frankly, Hans, I think B was a 'chicken'. I think he believed that marriage would mess up his artistic 'jive'. Take that, Maynard!
Suz

[lysander]

Originally posted by Suzie:

My second question is deeper. Are we able to explain why Beethoven could never have a relationship with a woman.



Frankly, Hans, I think B was a 'chicken'. I think he believed that marriage would mess up his artistic 'jive'. Take that, Maynard!
Suz

Hi Suzie,

I know what you are saying, but I think that Beethoven probably would have liked the comforting touch and understanding of a woman. But he was too emotoinally highly charged and all his emotions and energy was fired into his misic.
Deep down he knew he was married to his art, and his art was a jealous mistress.
Essentially, he was a musician above all and beyond all else.
Perhaps dear Ludwig was just plain boorish, cantankerous, crotchety and a bit too eccentric for the high society ladies.
I love eccentric people. I sometimes think that Beethoven did not need a wife but a nursemaid to soothe away his troubles. I would have loved to have nursed him. Dear sweet 'B'.

Lysander.



[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 18, 2003).]

[spaceray]

In his youth Beethoven was in love a lot.
His deafness changed his priorities.Even then he still had good(as well as terrible) relationships with women ,he could be as sweet and gentle with a female as well as fly at them in a rage.I don't believe he put all women in the same catagory as his sister in law (wanton,pleasure loving ,greedy and nasty)He appreciated musicality in his female friends.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Marta:

For what I know, this is a modern misconception of Pantheism, the belief in many gods. Pantheism is based as I said in Taoism.

Marta

It is an "alternate definition." Perhaps it came to be this way through a misconception. Many words take on meanings due to misuse and it goes on so long, it becomes official. Strange and confusing, but that is the nature of spoken language, I suppose.

[Gurn Blanston]

Actually, I think that we would all like to think that B wanted to have a wife because this sort of "normalcy" makes us comfortable with his psyche. Hell, it would have made HIM comfortable with his psyche! But after reading a lot about B, and listening to his expressed desires, or at least those attributed to him, I think that he really didn't want to have a wife, what he wanted was to have some outward appearance that he was a "regular guy", and he saw a wife as a way to have that. Then, as now, poeple look askance at single persons of either gender; they must not be normal or no one will have them. I think this is a failing of society, and from a man's perspective I would add that men at least do it because they want every other man to be in the same condition they are, whatever that condition may be ;-)) And god alone knows why women do it!
And speaking of God, I think that the semantic argument over the meaning of pantheism or polytheism can be easily settled by calling him a "Deist". One of the things I like most about B (and Mozart too, for that matter) is that they appear to believe in God but not religion. I share this attitude so perhaps I am more attuned to it in others. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards,
Gurn

[spaceray]

Beethoven didn't need a wife.I've completely changed my mind that it would have helped him work and live better(it was something Lysander said about his need to create in the right atmosphere),he worked and lived the way he wanted too.Burning bridges(domestically speaking) along the way.

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lysander:
[B]
Hi Suzie,

I know what you are saying, but I think that Beethoven probably would have liked the comforting touch and understanding of a woman. But he was too emotoinally highly charged and all his emotions and energy was fired into his misic.
Deep down he knew he was married to his art, and his art was a jealous mistress.
Essentially, he was a musician above all and beyond all else.
Perhaps dear Ludwig was just plain boorish, cantankerous, crotchety and a bit too eccentric for the high society ladies.
I love eccentric people. I sometimes think that Beethoven did not need a wife but a nursemaid to soothe away his troubles. I would have loved to have nursed him. Dear sweet 'B'.

Lysander.


L,
I have been known to dream of the same thing. Maybe if I'm very good, in the next life... Oh, I'm such a chump!
S

[lysander]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Actually, I think that we would all like to think that B wanted to have a wife because this sort of "normalcy" makes us comfortable with his psyche. Hell, it would have made HIM comfortable with his psyche! But after reading a lot about B, and listening to his expressed desires, or at least those attributed to him, I think that he really didn't want to have a wife, what he wanted was to have some outward appearance that he was a "regular guy", and he saw a wife as a way to have that. Then, as now, poeple look askance at single persons of either gender; they must not be normal or no one will have them. I think this is a failing of society, and from a man's perspective I would add that men at least do it because they want every other man to be in the same condition they are, whatever that condition may be ;-)) And god alone knows why women do it!
And speaking of God, I think that the semantic argument over the meaning of pantheism or polytheism can be easily settled by calling him a "Deist". One of the things I like most about B (and Mozart too, for that matter) is that they appear to believe in God but not religion. I share this attitude so perhaps I am more attuned to it in others. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards,
Gurn

Hello Gurn,

I know that you are comfortable with the idea that Beethoven was Deist,I think the idea may have appealed to him at one stage, but soon parted company with their denial of the divine revelation. Perhaps he was just far too complex to pin him down to any one thing. As we know, Beethoven had a very searching mind and explored other religions, and certain aspects may have appealed to him, but that does not mean that he became a 'Panthiest or Deist etc.
In fact I think that Beethoven was more sympathetic towards Catholicism, after all he was educated in the Catholic religion.

To put a spanner in the works however, I don't think that Beethoven was a Deist.
Deism was a really a product of the enlightenment whereby the French 'philosophs' then thought reason should rule everything, including the conduct and practice of religion. Deism was really like a kind of ghost in the machine.
The things of nature and the universe could not be explained by reason was assigned to the supernatural.
Deism was not particularly Christian, of course there are uncertainties about the precise nature of Beethoven's religious views, but I think it unlikely that he was Deist.

Beethoven was more a part of the romantic reaction to the enlightenment that produced the French revolution, he seems to have had a romantic/mystical view of religion like in nature and man.
But I still have a nagging sense that he remained a devout christian but without the dogma. He saw Christ as the perfection of mankind and was always looking for a source for uncorrupted Joy and hope. And the sort of example all mankind should aspire towards, of course, Beethoven had little patience with the hierachy and reactions over the established church. Most artists at that time have wanted to liberate religious experience from the formal structures and creeds.
Beethoven absolutely believed in God as the force behind nature.

Beethoven parted company, not only with the anti-biblical ridicule of creed and dogma by the Diests, but especially with the their denial of the supernatural state and divine revelation.

I think Beethoven's great divine masterpiece- Missa Solemnis- is very Catholic.


Regards, Lysander.




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 19, 2003).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Actually, I think that we would all like to think that B wanted to have a wife because this sort of "normalcy" makes us comfortable with his psyche. Hell, it would have made HIM comfortable with his psyche! But after reading a lot about B, and listening to his expressed desires, or at least those attributed to him, I think that he really didn't want to have a wife, what he wanted was to have some outward appearance that he was a "regular guy", and he saw a wife as a way to have that. Then, as now, poeple look askance at single persons of either gender; they must not be normal or no one will have them. I think this is a failing of society, and from a man's perspective I would add that men at least do it because they want every other man to be in the same condition they are, whatever that condition may be ;-)) And god alone knows why women do it!

Absolutely - Of course there is a hell of a lot of pressure from society to marry, probably more then than now. You're probably right and I suspect Beethoven wasn't even conciously aware of it; outwardly he probably felt he should marry, but his subconcious was possibly saying 'No Way'!

And speaking of God, I think that the semantic argument over the meaning of pantheism or polytheism can be easily settled by calling him a "Deist". One of the things I like most about B (and Mozart too, for that matter) is that they appear to believe in God but not religion. I share this attitude so perhaps I am more attuned to it in others. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards,
Gurn

We may all be wrong Gurn but I share your views - possibly we are reincarnations from the age of enlightenment

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Would any woman of the time have put up with Beethoven's incredibly poor housekeeping?

I don't suppose that in those days women had as much choice about their household responsibilities. But if it weren't the housekeeping I would think that Beethoven's mood changes and temperment would drive most women out.

[Chaszz]

For what my opinion is worth, I think Beethoven was unconsciously afraid of the opposite sex and of intimacy. I have known several people who are this way and have seen it in some well-known people, in the media. It is a fairly common problem and not easy to overcome; even in this era when some kinds of psychological help are available which did not even exist in the early 19th century. It would probably be based on early experiences and/or upbringing of some kind. I think his violent denuciations of his sister-in-law show evidence of intense uneasiness about women as sexual beings, added to and masked to some extent by intense moral prudery.

None of this would be incompatible with a genuine longing for a woman's affections and love. I don't think the demands of his genius would have prevented him finding a mate as he was obviously quite lonely, and other composers of genius by and large didn't have to avoid marriage to fulfill their destinies. His rages would not have prevented this either; if he had been more fuilfilled on the home front emotionally, they might have even dissipated to some extent. And, of course sad to say, womern were used to being railed at in those times, and the right submissive woman would have been able to sacrifice herself and stand by him -- of course this is not right, but it could have occured, as long as deep love was also present, as with Wagner's rages and the submissive, dedicated Cosima. I think the problem resides in some unconscious conflict of Beethoven's; perhaps something akin to Brahms' similar dread of romantic intimacy (although of course, Brahms said he was not lonely).

I am not saying that being single is necessarily unfilling, not at all. But where the desire for a loving mate existed as strongly as it did with Beethoven, I think in his case it was.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited May 19, 2003).]

[spaceray]

While Beethoven might have desired a loving and helpfull mate ,I wonder,given his lifestyle,if he thought he could really bring anything to marriage. Maybe he was realistic enough to know he couldn't sustain
the temperment marriage might require of him.

[Gurn Blanston]

Peter,
Well, I have often been accused of being a throwback, and I must say that the philosophy of those times presents a certain appeal to me. I am pleased that I am not the only one that maintains this viewpoint, sometimes I think a step backwards in time is at least equal to a step forward!
Regards,
Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by lysander:
Hello Gurn,

I know that you are comfortable with the idea that Beethoven was Deist,I think the idea may have appealed to him at one stage, but soon parted company with their denial of the divine revelation. Perhaps he was just far too complex to pin him down to any one thing. .... but I think it unlikely that he was Deist.

Regards, Lysander.


[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 19, 2003).]

Lysander,
No, no, no, let's not go there, this would be the same thing I was trying to get away from by saying this originally! All I mean by "Deist" is not Deism as a religion, but in the generic sense that a deist believes that there is a god, nothing more. In fact, I didn't even know that there WAS a deist religion, and I would never accuse B of belonging to any religion. I was born Catholic too, it doesn't make me one today despite what they say. B may have been baptized and received last rites, but this does not make him a Catholic, no more than it does me. He didn't live his life in a religious manner. All I'm saying is that he believed that there is a God.
Regards, Gurn

[lysander]

Dear Gurn,
Without wishing to get my fingers burned, I have to say that your phrase, 'Beethoven did not live his life in a religious way' is really quite wide of the mark of everything we know of the great man.

Firstly, Beethoven lived his life in a deeply religious sense, not only of a man of the highest possible personal morals but also a person that continually lived in the presence of what one might call God, or the universal creative spirit.

Secondly, We all tend to forget that Beethoven was educated in the Catholic faith and even nominally himself a Catholic.
Yes, it is true he had no truck with church hierarchies and often disdained creeds, but it is quite clear he regarded music as a sacred calling, and there is a powerful case for saying that like many of the great romantics he saw nature and music as a sacrament. For Beethoven that sacrament had an obvious parallel with the sacraments with the sacraments of his own church.
He obviously did not spend all day on his knees, and didn't attend mass every day,if he had we may have had a great saint, but hardly a great composer.

Thirdly, Let us not forget that when Beethoven took on the role as virtual father to his nephew Karl and took a close interest in his religious instruction and appointed a catholic priest. I also read somewhere that Beethoven said prayers with Karl either morning or evening.


This site for me is a valuable learning source, and I have certainly learned much and has helped me reflect even more on Beethoven's music and life through the informed comments of our correspondents.
It is a continual and fascinating learning process.
But it is a give and take process, and with the greatest respect, to say Beethoven did not lead a religious life in any meaningful sense of the word, and with all we know about his life and even more what we can intelligently infer from his music, it surely incorrect to say he did not lead a religious life.

If Peter thinks that we may all be wrong, then why need I bother posting? The truth is incomplete of course, as it is with any historical character. But nevertheless, sensible and reasonable influences from the known facts are permissable.


Am I alone in thinking that the Missa Solemnis is very Catholic?

Best regards,
Lysander.




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 19, 2003).]