Stout returns with a question about Beethoven

[Hans]

Friends and fellow Beethoven admiriers!(sp)

Stout aka Falstaff and now Hans because I cannot remember my password(its been a while)returns to ask you all some questions about Beethoven. My first question is simple, hopefully: what was Beethoven's stand on religion and what was his preference catholic? Episc.? What was he?
My second question is deeper. Are we able to explain why Beethoven could never have a relationship with a woman. I dont understand-people who give us so much, who are in a way so kind, why must they suffer in this sense? I feel I share the same problem and this is indeed depressing to the soul yet it seems throughout the history of great artists they do their best work when they are depressed. Could anyone elaborate on Beethoven's situation more clearly to me please. Thank you for your time and may I say it is a pleasure to share this forum with people who like Beethoven.
Thanks

HANS

[Chris]

Search through previous threads, and you will get a lot of good stuff on these topics.

Briefly, about Beethoven's religion:

Beethoven was a Catholic, but not a particularly observent Catholic. He did receive Last Rites. In any case, he did believe in God and there was a strong spiritual aspect to his life.

[Marta]

Originally posted by Chris:
Search through previous threads, and you will get a lot of good stuff on these topics.

Briefly, about Beethoven's religion:

Beethoven was a Catholic, but not a particularly observent Catholic. He did receive Last Rites. In any case, he did believe in God and there was a strong spiritual aspect to his life.

Hi Chris.

I have to add, that Beethoven was Pantheist and had a reverence to nature, in which he saw God.

Marta

[Chris]

No, I think "pantheist" is going too far.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited May 17, 2003).]

[Marta]

Originally posted by Chris:
No, I think "pantheist" is going too far.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited May 17, 2003).]

Hi Chris.

Sorry, I should say is believed that Beethoven was Pantheist. This belief is pointed out by John Crabbe in his book "Beethoven's Empire of the mind".


Marta

[Chris]

Nevertheless, I don't think it is an accurate word to apply to Beethoven. Seeing God in nature, which Beethoven certainly did, is not the same as considering nature (or the universe and all its laws) to BE "God." Perhaps under a very, very loose definition of pantheism...

[Marta]

Originally posted by Chris:
Nevertheless, I don't think it is an accurate word to apply to Beethoven. Seeing God in nature, which Beethoven certainly did, is not the same as considering nature (or the universe and all its laws) to BE "God." Perhaps under a very, very loose definition of pantheism...

Hi Chris.

Perhaps, I did not express properly what Pantheism is....which is based in Unity and will be to extensive to do and is not the point of this forum, I just wanted to say that is believed that Beethoven adopted Goeth's Pantheism.
Personally, I agree with this belief and feel this in his music more than nothing else.


Marta

[John Rasmussen]

Would any woman of the time have put up with Beethoven's incredibly poor housekeeping?

Marta, suffice it to say our Ludwig was probably not an orthodox anything! But he certainly believed in God; that is obvious from the few writings I've seen of his and even more from his music. I have sensed he was in full agreement with the Ode to Joy.

[Marta]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Would any woman of the time have put up with Beethoven's incredibly poor housekeeping?

Marta, suffice it to say our Ludwig was probably not an orthodox anything! But he certainly believed in God; that is obvious from the few writings I've seen of his and even more from his music. I have sensed he was in full agreement with the Ode to Joy.

Hi John.


Absolutely!...I agree with you 100%. In no way Pantheism denies the existence of God.
I think the best will be not to label Beethoven, from the writings of him that I have read, he didn't espress as a Catholic, but more as a Pantheist, maybe he was neither, but a very independant soul, who being very spiritual couldn't limit himself to any orthodox religion.

By the way, I'm not Pantheist.


Marta

[Chris]

Pantheism can be belief in all gods or it can be the belief that everything - the universe and its laws - are God. I don't see either of these things in Beethoven's beliefs. If you have some other defenition of pantheism in mind, please share it so we know what you are talking about.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hans:
Friends and fellow Beethoven admiriers!(sp)

Stout aka Falstaff and now Hans because I cannot remember my password(its been a while)returns to ask you all some questions about Beethoven. My first question is simple, hopefully: what was Beethoven's stand on religion and what was his preference catholic? Episc.? What was he?
My second question is deeper. Are we able to explain why Beethoven could never have a relationship with a woman. I dont understand-people who give us so much, who are in a way so kind, why must they suffer in this sense? I feel I share the same problem and this is indeed depressing to the soul yet it seems throughout the history of great artists they do their best work when they are depressed. Could anyone elaborate on Beethoven's situation more clearly to me please. Thank you for your time and may I say it is a pleasure to share this forum with people who like Beethoven.
Thanks

HANS

Welcome back hans!

I don't think it is a pre-requisite to be depressive in order to produce great art or else Tchaikovsky would be the greatest composer of all! Haydn, Bach and Handel all seem to have been quite content people and of course were very great composers. Despite the afflictions Beethoven suffered I never think of him as a depressive - sure he had his moments when he was desperately unhappy, but somehow he always came through and I feel a sense of optimism not just in the music but the letters as well.

On the religious question - from his music and letters it is clear that he was a man who had a deep belief in God and a profound love of nature. I don't think he adhered to any particular creed and found God in the woods and valleys rather than a stone building called a church.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Marta]

Originally posted by Chris:
Pantheism can be belief in all gods or it can be the belief that everything - the universe and its laws - are God. I don't see either of these things in Beethoven's beliefs. If you have some other defenition of pantheism in mind, please share it so we know what you are talking about.

Hi Chris.

Pantheism is not Polytheism (belief in all gods). Pantheism is based in the concept of Unity, that God is present in everything in the entire Universe. The Pantheist doesn't see God as a separate supreme being from the Unity. Basically is the concept of Oneness, a very old one, from the Taoists and Budhist.

Chris, there are writers and biographers who had mentioned Beethoven's Pantheism, is not mine opinion, I may agree with it, but it wasn't me who came up with this, I just pointed out those opinions.

Marta

[Chris]

Originally posted by Marta:
Hi Chris.

Pantheism is not Polytheism (belief in all gods). Pantheism is based in the concept of Unity, that God is present in everything in the entire Universe. The Pantheist doesn't see God as a separate supreme being from the Unity. Basically is the concept of Oneness, a very old one, from the Taoists and Budhist.

Chris, there are writers and biographers who had mentioned Beethoven's Pantheism, is not mine opinion, I may agree with it, but it wasn't me who came up with this, I just pointed out those opinions.

Marta

Your definition pretty well matches my second
one, so I think we understand one another. Nevertheless, I have also heard pantheism used to reference the belief in all gods. This is not exacly polytheism (it is a subset of it, to be sure).

[Marta]

Originally posted by Chris:
Your definition pretty well matches my second
one, so I think we understand one another. Nevertheless, I have also heard pantheism used to reference the belief in all gods. This is not exacly polytheism (it is a subset of it, to be sure).

For what I know, this is a modern misconception of Pantheism, the belief in many gods. Pantheism is based as I said in Taoism.

Marta

[Suzie]

I have noticed reading through B's (and Mozarts) letters, journals, etc. that they very frequently make reference to God. I wonder if that was just the manner or speaking or convention back then. It appears to be that much desired running dialogue/relationship.

Suz


[This message has been edited by Suzie (edited May 18, 2003).]