Authentic Instruments page - 3 Sonatas for fortepiano Op.2

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well no1 was recorded in the University concert hall I was discussing above, where the accoustics are appauling. Even a Steinway would sound bleached in this concert hall - perhaps the students there are deaf? No2 was recorded in a studio and you will agree it sounds more colourfull. No3 was also recorded in the Hall and the accoustic sounds so bad I think I'll not present a track from it. But in all cases in this set I believe the mics are too close to the instruments to give a realistic impression (ie the 'soundstage' produced is too large).

The quest for detail in modern performance is often what makes the overall effect so ..er.. ineffectual and tame. The nature of the modern instrument encourages this as the tone is too heavy and loud to take liberties with. This is not the case with the old pianos. You mention the overbearing bass, well the bass on a Walter is in no way as strong as that on a modern piano so I don't understand this point, perhaps this relates to the soundstage problem I mention above.

Well maybe and my speakers are hardly brilliant - but my point about the bass is in relation to the treble. Yes modern instruments do have a more powerful bass, but they also have better tone quality in the middle and upper registers which on the early instruments can be quite feeble and therefore the balance sounds wrong to my ear in this recording. I do not agree that the tone on a modern piano is too loud - it depends on how the instrument is being played. The range of tone possible is greater and therefore it is perfectly possible to produce the softest tones and the loudest!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well maybe and my speakers are hardly brilliant - but my point about the bass is in relation to the treble. Yes modern instruments do have a more powerful bass, but they also have better tone quality in the middle and upper registers which on the early instruments can be quite feeble and therefore the balance sounds wrong to my ear in this recording. I do not agree that the tone on a modern piano is too loud - it depends on how the instrument is being played. The range of tone possible is greater and therefore it is perfectly possible to produce the softest tones and the loudest!

Also bear in mind these are low-res mp3s, and for some reason some conversions turn out better than others.

Can you tell me why just about every recording of the Pathetique I've heard on a modern piano as struck me as being dramatically tame relative to my fp disks? It is the quest for clarity that makes the music sound trite. With the fp you can really zip out the notes at any volume and they still sound sharp.

The typical fortepiano has a much clearer midrange and bass from my experience as the notes are much richer in upper sound partials, especially the latter which is just a blur on a Steinway. Bear in mind it is not the relative qualities of the fps in themselves I'm interested in, but rather their qualities as they apply to Beethoven's compositions.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited May 19, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
I must say I was expecting at least some kind of backlash by now along the lines of "oh I much prefer Brendel and his Steinway to all this" or words to that effect, like used to happen all the time in the old days. But there has been nothing so far. Could it be I have silenced my critics already?? And I'm only at Opus.2!!

The timbre of the older instrument is more pleasing to me than of the modern; however, as I have listened to other piano works played by (Steinways) modern instruments I find that I enjoy listening to both instruments of both periods rather equally. This contest between which is better is similar to whether one likes apples better than oranges. I like them both.

[Marta]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well maybe and my speakers are hardly brilliant - but my point about the bass is in relation to the treble. Yes modern instruments do have a more powerful bass, but they also have better tone quality in the middle and upper registers which on the early instruments can be quite feeble and therefore the balance sounds wrong to my ear in this recording. I do not agree that the tone on a modern piano is too loud - it depends on how the instrument is being played. The range of tone possible is greater and therefore it is perfectly possible to produce the softest tones and the loudest!

Hi Peter.

I'm in total agreement with you. The modern piano is what it is, an improved instrument compared with the pianofortes.
Beethoven was always complaining about the pianos of his time, he will be so happy with our modern piano....it is what he dreamt so much to have, a magnifecent powerful instrument that respond to the all the nuances and subtelties of his music.
Is my opinion that what the composers wrote IS music, and if the instruments are improved in quality, the better is for us to interpret their music.
For me to play in a pianoforte today is the same as using one of the first computers, with low speed, low capacity etc...it just makes no sense.

Marta


[This message has been edited by Marta (edited May 19, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Marta (edited May 19, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Marta (edited May 19, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Peter wrote:

'Well maybe and my speakers are hardly brilliant...'

I often listen on a good pair of headphones, which cost pehaps 1/300 as much as a really good pair of speakers, and seem to give comparable sound quality. That is with MP3s over the computer. The sound quality of my Panasonic CD walkman player with good Panasonic headphones is to me the best sound quality I've heard anywhere, bar none.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Marta:
Hi Peter.

I'm in total agreement with you. The modern piano is what it is, an improved instrument compared with the pianofortes.
Beethoven was always complaining about the pianos of his time, he will be so happy with our modern piano....it is what he dreamt so much to have, a magnifecent powerful instrument that respond to the all the nuances and subtelties of his music.
Is my opinion that what the composers wrote IS music, and if the instruments are improved in quality, the better is for us to interpret their music.
For me to play in a pianoforte today is the same as using one of the first computers, with low speed, low capacity etc...it just makes no sense.

Marta

I suggest what Beethoven would have made of the modern instrument in irrelevant for he wrote music to be played on contemporary instruments that had very different characteristics. Many of the nuances in the music were geared towards these instruments and cannot easily be replicated on the modern piano. My position is that if Beethoven had a piano like we have today, he would have wrote the music differently.

In terms of keyboard speed I see the modern grand as a big heavy Rolls Royce, and the fortepiano as a Ferrari!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Marta]

Originally posted by Rod:
I suggest what Beethoven would have made of the modern instrument in irrelevant for he wrote music to be played on contemporary instruments that had very different characteristics. Many of the nuances in the music were geared towards these instruments and cannot easily be replicated on the modern piano. My position is that if Beethoven had a piano like we have today, he would have wrote the music differently.

In terms of keyboard speed I see the modern grand as a big heavy Rolls Royce, and the fortepiano as a Ferrari!

Hi Rod.

Music IS music, and has nothing to do with the quality of the instruments available.
I'm a pianist, and I know my instrument.
The modern piano IS NOT only a powerful instrument, as I said is just an improved instrument, it can be played heavenly or it can be played with power, it responds to ALL the dynamics nuances, from the most extreme pianissimo to the most extreme fortissimo.
To say that the modern piano is ONLY a powerful instrument is not to know it.

To say that Beethoven would have write differently for a modern piano, makes no sense, there is nothing in his piano music that can't be played in a modern piano, because the modern piano is NOT a different instrument, is just an improved one.

Because in the times of Beethoven, he had less quality instruments, it doesn't mean that his music has to be played in those instruments of less quality, he just wrote MUSIC, then better instruments means for us pianists better possibilities to express his music.

Marta

[Rod]

Originally posted by Marta:
Hi Rod.

Music IS music, and has nothing to do with the quality of the instruments available.

Then you will have no complaints about it being performed on a fortepiano! I bet there has never been a professional pianist who has never complained about the quality of a particular piano he has been presented with to play! Pianists are VERY fussy. Beethoven was and so are todays performers. But in B's time there was much more variation in the sound of different makes of piano.

Originally posted by Marta:

To say that the modern piano is ONLY a powerful instrument is not to know it.

I know more about the mechanics of the various pianos than most pianists that's for sure. There are issues with the action in particular that Beethoven was very fussy about. He liked a light action, and the Viennese action of his day is much lighter than anything we have now. But there are other physical considerations. then there is the issue of the temperament. Lots of things to consider.

Originally posted by Marta:

To say that Beethoven would have write differently for a modern piano, makes no sense, there is nothing in his piano music that can't be played in a modern piano, because the modern piano is NOT a different instrument, is just an improved one.

With respect it makes absolute sence.

Originally posted by Marta:

Because in the times of Beethoven, he had less quality instruments, it doesn't mean that his music has to be played in those instruments of less quality, he just wrote MUSIC, then better instruments means for us pianists better possibilities to express his music.

Marta

In my opinion some of the 'qualities' of the modern piano work against the performance of some earlier keyboard music.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited May 19, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Peter wrote:

'Well maybe and my speakers are hardly brilliant...'

I often listen on a good pair of headphones, which cost pehaps 1/300 as much as a really good pair of speakers, and seem to give comparable sound quality. That is with MP3s over the computer. The sound quality of my Panasonic CD walkman player with good Panasonic headphones is to me the best sound quality I've heard anywhere, bar none.

Just noticed this. I have headphones by the Austrian company Beyer that are easily the best in their price bracket at just £35. My Tannoy speakers cost £120 - not quite a ratio of 1 to 300! The speakers however have a dynamism the headphones are incapable of that makes them better value than the headphones in pure listening terms. Of course driving the speakers are £400 worth of NAD amp and CD player. This is budget money in audiophile terms but these days that buys you a very good sound indeed if you also buy good cables. It's always better value to buy hi-fi separates than hi-fi 'units' which sound much inferior for same money.

PS: A correction - I've been checking my cd liner notes and half of the tracks of this complete beethoven set on period instruments were not recorded in a university hall as I stated above, but in a church. It was the studio that was at the university. This explains better the bleak and cold sound of the tracks in question in this recording.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited May 20, 2003).]

[Marta]

Originally posted by Rod:
In my opinion some of the 'qualities' of the modern piano work against the performance of some earlier keyboard music.

Hi Rod.


Of course that as a pianist the quality of the instrument matters, this has been ALL my point, I know that by self-experience, I'm ver fussy myself when it comes to the pianos in which I have to performe.
What I meant saying that music IS music, and has nothing to do with the quality of the instruments, is that MUSIC by ITSELF is beyond that.
Seems to be that you also know about pianos, great, then you must know that the action can be regulated. The Hamburg Steinways can be ordered with light, medium or heavy actions.
Rod, you have your opinion, and I have mine. Personally I don't see tose *qualities* in the modern pianos, what I see is a magnifecent instrument that responds to any nuances and quality (color and dynamics)sound to the pianist, and for me Beethoven's music when performed in pianofortes lacks the color and intensity that I feel in his music, for me it doesn't do justice to the potencial of his misic. BUT THIS IS MY OPINION, and opinion that I know many pianists share.


Marta



[This message has been edited by Marta (edited May 20, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Marta:

Hi Rod.


Of course that as a pianist the quality of the instrument matters, this has been ALL my point, I know that by self-experience, I'm ver fussy myself when it comes to the pianos in which I have to performe.

As a performer and teacher I share your views about the modern piano - however I still find it interesting to hear Beethoven's piano music on original instruments and to learn about the fortepianos themselves. Rod, I and many others on this forum have had quite heated debates on this topic in the past as you will see if you use the search facility!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Marta:

Hi Rod.

..... BUT THIS IS MY OPINION, and opinion that I know many pianists share.


Marta

Fair enough if that's what you think, all I can say is I have got tired of listening to the modern piano.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Fair enough if that's what you think, all I can say is I have got tired of listening to the modern piano.

Ah, if you only appreciated Earl Hines, Fats Waller, Frank Signorelli, Teddy Wilson and the other rollicking jazz pianists of the 1930s what a different tune you would sing.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Ah, if you only appreciated Earl Hines, Fats Waller, Frank Signorelli, Teddy Wilson and the other rollicking jazz pianists of the 1930s what a different tune you would sing.

So that's why I'm tired of the modern piano, it's a Jazz instrument! It all makes sence now.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Marta]

Originally posted by Peter:
As a performer and teacher I share your views about the modern piano - however I still find it interesting to hear Beethoven's piano music on original instruments and to learn about the fortepianos themselves. Rod, I and many others on this forum have had quite heated debates on this topic in the past as you will see if you use the search facility!

Hi Peter..great, you also are a performer and a teacher.

Yes, I just realize how many different and strong opinions this subject brings.
Perhaps was a mistake that I posted my opinion on this matter, considering that the thread was about performances on Authentic instruments.
I will abstain of expressing myself again in this thread.

Marta