Authentic Instruments page - 3 Sonatas for fortepiano Op.2

[Peter]

Now available to members at
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Now available to members at
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

Guess what, you got a largo this time, a dynamic performance of it here as one should expect. With the prestissimo from no1, I think the fp allows you to bash the piano a bit more without it sounding over-the top. These are some of the more tollerable offerings from a set that I do not particularly recommend, but some people like it. Alas I lost my Badura-Skoda recording of op2!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

I have these however not on period instruments so it was a real pleasure to hear them performed on a fp. The notes said that 'three of the Op.2 Sonatas have four movements, and it was unusual as the classical sonatas of Haydn and Mozart normally have three or even two movements'. Did Beethoven come up with this unique idea or had it been done (albeit rarely) pre-Beethoven?

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Chaszz]

The Largo to me seems very interesting in how much it resembles the later Beethoven slow movmeents. I'm not familiar enough with Haydn's piano sonatas to know how much of this is his influence and how much of Beethoven there is here. The feeling is what I recognize from those later Beethoven adagios, beautiful yet tinged with an otherworldly, almost strange, sadness.

The other night I heard Haydn's sonata #60 on the radio, and before they announced the composer I thought it would turn out to be Beethoven. The performance was by Glenn Gould, and he uses so little sustain that the piano seems to me to sound like the fortepiano.

Of course I should explore Haydn's sonatas more before making these remarks, but with my preocupation with the Romantics lately that is probably not too likely. Can anyone indulge me with any comments on these thoughts?

[spaceray]

I could just see Beethoven in my minds eye bent over the piano playing op2 no 1.
Splendid !

[Andrea]

I love these 3 Sonatas Op.2. I have these on a CD that I picked up in a € 2 case at a bookshop in the city with John O'Conor performing.

After playing the 2 fortepiano pieces that Rod supplied here, I played the same 2 pieces from my CD so my husband could hear the difference between a fortepiano from 1795 and a modern piano. You would think that someone who was born and raised here in Vienna would know this difference, but alas my poor husband hasn't really been that exposed to classical music. But never fear, Andrea is here and he has been pleasantly surprised with some of the classical music I have introduced him to.

What's great here is that we get one of southern Germany's TV channels that on Sunday mornings airs film series on famous composers. Last month we saw an Austrian made for TV movie, in 3 parts, on Franz Schubert. This month we are watching an Austrian/Hungarian/German production on Johann Sebastian Bach. My husband was pleasantly surprised that he heard music from these two composers that he really enjoyed and had never heard before. For example, about the only piece he knows from Bach is the Toccata and Fugue in D minor,BWV 565. Sad, isn't it. Luckily he married me to save him from this sad state of affairs...

[Rod]

Originally posted by Andrea:
I love these 3 Sonatas Op.2. I have these on a CD that I picked up in a € 2 case at a bookshop in the city with John O'Conor performing.

After playing the 2 fortepiano pieces that Rod supplied here, I played the same 2 pieces from my CD so my husband could hear the difference between a fortepiano from 1795 and a modern piano. You would think that someone who was born and raised here in Vienna would know this difference, but alas my poor husband hasn't really been that exposed to classical music. But never fear, Andrea is here and he has been pleasantly surprised with some of the classical music I have introduced him to.

What's great here is that we get one of southern Germany's TV channels that on Sunday mornings airs film series on famous composers. Last month we saw an Austrian made for TV movie, in 3 parts, on Franz Schubert....

I've seen the Schubert series you mention, it's the best of its kind I think, better than Amadeus and Immortal Beloved but that's not saying much!

Your story about your husband reminds me of a story of my own. One of my brothers has a moderate interest in Classical Music, Bach and Chopin mainly, but a conventional one in that he is totally against authentic intstruments. One day we were having our usual argument on this topic, in a bar of course, and he stated he was more than happy with a CD of Beethoven sonatas I gave him along time ago and required no change of instrument. A little confused I asked him what CD was this, so when we got back to his place he showed me the CD. Of course the music on this CD was played on, much to his surprise, a 1795 Walter copy like the current mp3s!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited May 15, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Andrea:
You would think that someone who was born and raised here in Vienna would know this difference, but alas my poor husband hasn't really been that exposed to classical music. But never fear, Andrea is here and he has been pleasantly surprised with some of the classical music I have introduced him to.
...Sad, isn't it. Luckily he married me to save him from this sad state of affairs...

Strange that an Austrian needs an American to introduce him to his own heritage!

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Joy:
I have these however not on period instruments so it was a real pleasure to hear them performed on a fp. The notes said that 'three of the Op.2 Sonatas have four movements, and it was unusual as the classical sonatas of Haydn and Mozart normally have three or even two movements'. Did Beethoven come up with this unique idea or had it been done (albeit rarely) pre-Beethoven?

Many of Mozart's sonatas are 4 movement. Haydn's, as I recall what I've looked at, go from 2 to 3 to 4.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Guess what, you got a largo this time, a dynamic performance of it here as one should expect. With the prestissimo from no1, I think the fp allows you to bash the piano a bit more without it sounding over-the top. These are some of the more tollerable offerings from a set that I do not particularly recommend, but some people like it. Alas I lost my Badura-Skoda recording of op2!

I was so moved by the largo that I didn't even pay much attention to the fast movement. I'll have to go back and listen when I have a better opportunity.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

I was so moved by the largo that I didn't even pay much attention to the fast movement. I'll have to go back and listen when I have a better opportunity.

Half of this set was recorded in a US university hall that has the feel of a cold concrete bunker and the music suffers for it, the rest was recorded in a studio which sounds better. But many of the performances are too lame for me in any case. And then there's the issue of the extra notes added in many tracks!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited May 15, 2003).]

[Rod]

I must say I was expecting at least some kind of backlash by now along the lines of "oh I much prefer Brendel and his Steinway to all this" or words to that effect, like used to happen all the time in the old days. But there has been nothing so far. Could it be I have silenced my critics already?? And I'm only at Opus.2!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I must say I was expecting at least some kind of backlash by now along the lines of "oh I much prefer Brendel and his Steinway to all this" or words to that effect, like used to happen all the time in the old days. But there has been nothing so far. Could it be I have silenced my critics already?? And I'm only at Opus.2!!

I haven't had time to listen properly yet! Tomorrow I'll hopefully have something to say!


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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Peter:

I haven't had time to listen properly yet! Tomorrow I'll hopefully have something to say!

Well I've listened to number 1 and I'm not keen on the sound quality - the bass I find overbearing and blurred and the treble weak and ineffective - does anyone else agree? Indeed I prefer the sound of the modern piano which to my ear gives far greater clarity and detail. I know we've been over this many times before and I haven't budged nor have you! I find it fascinating to listen to but I don't prefer it. With orchestral instruments I don't have the same problem as the changes have been far less than with the piano - this I know is actually the basis behind your argument, but I interpret it a different way!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I've listened to number 1 and I'm not keen on the sound quality - the bass I find overbearing and blurred and the treble weak and ineffective - does anyone else agree? Indeed I prefer the sound of the modern piano which to my ear gives far greater clarity and detail. I know we've been over this many times before and I haven't budged nor have you! I find it fascinating to listen to but I don't prefer it. With orchestral instruments I don't have the same problem as the changes have been far less than with the piano - this I know is actually the basis behind your argument, but I interpret it a different way!

Well no1 was recorded in the University concert hall I was discussing above, where the accoustics are appauling. Even a Steinway would sound bleached in this concert hall - perhaps the students there are deaf? No2 was recorded in a studio and you will agree it sounds more colourfull. No3 was also recorded in the Hall and the accoustic sounds so bad I think I'll not present a track from it. But in all cases in this set I believe the mics are too close to the instruments to give a realistic impression (ie the 'soundstage' produced is too large).

The quest for detail in modern performance is often what makes the overall effect so ..er.. ineffectual and tame. The nature of the modern instrument encourages this as the tone is too heavy and loud to take liberties with. This is not the case with the old pianos. You mention the overbearing bass, well the bass on a Walter is in no way as strong as that on a modern piano so I don't understand this point, perhaps this relates to the soundstage problem I mention above.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited May 18, 2003).]