thr real life beethoven

[arbaqi]

hi:
i have been thinking abut the that alesander claissified beethoven as a composer.
and for me i think that if you compared what beethoven composed, the music ,the names of the composed piaces,i strongly belive that he was a real life composer.
he expressed the real life and the struggle that anormal person live through all his life and that is a very important aspect of beethoven the composer which makes him an all time composer as i sringly believe

[Ahmad]

Hi arbaqi...

I think it's your first contribution here ..so Welcome!

I agree with you that Beethoven was a composer whose music is an interpreter
of his own life .. for example..his sufferings (pathetique sonata),struggle against fate(5'th symphoney),triumph (9'th)..His music was full of power,intensity as his own life was..

In this regard I mention that Tchaikovsky was on the other hand in an abmivalence between his music and his own life ..the great power found in his piano concerto no.1 for example was just his own dream ...nothing in reality..
I'd like to know other members opinon about this subject ... does a composer necessarily interpret his own life in his music..or there may be an ambivalence ..and if yes..why..?

[This message has been edited by Ahmad (edited May 16, 2003).]

[arbaqi]

hi ahmad:
yes it is a very important reson.
but what i meant was:was beethoven really capable of knowing peole as they really are??
in terms of human nature that fights , kills and ....

[Marta]

Originally posted by arbaqi:
hi ahmad:
yes it is a very important reson.
but what i meant was:was beethoven really capable of knowing peole as they really are??
in terms of human nature that fights , kills and ....

Hi Arbaqi

This is a very philosophycal question.
To *know* people as they really are!!!Sometimes we don't even know ourselves as we really are.

Now, I think that through his music we can have a perception of Beethoven's *deep inner self*.
Music was his vehicle of communication, and maybe the fact that his music had touched almost the entirety of mankind with such intensity, is because we identify ourselves with his *inner self*, then in a way could be said, yes he knew mankind, but not in the way of individual personalities but as essence, and this is for me what we truly are.


Marta

[lysander]

Originally posted by Marta:
Hi Arbaqi

This is a very philosophycal question.
To *know* people as they really are!!!Sometimes we don't even know ourselves as we really are.

Now, I think that through his music we can have a perception of Beethoven's *deep inner self*.
Music was his vehicle of communication, and maybe the fact that his music had touched almost the entirety of mankind with such intensity, is because we identify ourselves with his *inner self*, then in a way could be said, yes he knew mankind, but not in the way of individual personalities but as essence, and this is for me what we truly are.


Marta

Marta, how true it is to say that we don't really know ourselves.
I would absolutely say that Beethoven knew ordinary people as far as it it possible to know any human individual. I think that the wonderful thing about Beethoven is that he understood our imperfections, but still has an incredibly lofty view of mankinds purpose and future.
He certainly knew about the dark side of life, the human struggle and disappointments and the perverse pleasure that humans take in what might be called the life of taverns - rather than more noble avocations.
When you are talking about Beethoven's deep inner self, we are of course talking about something incredibly profound, and to Beethoven lovers like ourselves, we are almost standing on holy ground.
Marta is also right to say the Beethoven had this platonic grasp of the ideal of man and essence of man separate from the frail erring reality of human individuals, but the paradox is, he understands both, communicates both, and his music is all the more powerful for it.

Lysander.

[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 17, 2003).]

[Marta]

Originally posted by lysander:

Marta, how true it is to say that we don't really know ourselves.
I would absolutely say that Beethoven knew ordinary people as far as it it possible to know any human individual. I think that the wonderful thing about Beethoven is that he understood our imperfections, but still has an incredibly lofty view of mankinds purpose and future.
He certainly knew about the dark side of life, the human struggle and disappointments and the perverse pleasure that humans take in what might be called the life of taverns - rather than more noble avocations.
When you are talking about Beethoven's deep inner self, we are of course talking about something incredibly profound, and to Beethoven lovers like ourselves, we are almost standing on holy ground.
Marta is also right to say the Beethoven had this platonic grasp of the ideal of man and essence of man separate from the frail erring reality of human individuals, but the paradox is, he understands both, communicates both, and his music is all the more powerful for it.

Lysander.

[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 17, 2003).]

Hi Lysander.

Of course Beethoven knew people as far as is possible to know, and most certanly was based in his own perceptions.
Beethoven was a human being as any one of us, a musical genius, yes, but very human indeed.
When I mentioned Beethoven's *deep inner self*, it was not as refering to something *holy*, but to the essence of what WE all are, and he was able to communicate it through music.
Lysander, there is when the paradox comes to place, knowing self or essence, means understanding self not only as an *ideal* but as a experiencer in life too.
I think this why his music had such incredible impact in our world, his music talks to all of us, we resonate with it, whatever we may call that.
Is my opinion that Beethoven was a tremendous musical (subjective) communicator, the scope of his communication has reached almost our entire humanity, very few musicians have been able to accomplish that, then something is in his music that we identify with, and for me is our essence.
I know, this is getting into philosophical concepts, and what I expressed is just based in my own perceptions.


Marta

[Ahmad]

Originally posted by Marta:
Hi Lysander.

Of course Beethoven knew people as far as is possible to know, and most certanly was based in his own perceptions.
Beethoven was a human being as any one of us, a musical genius, yes, but very human indeed.
When I mentioned Beethoven's *deep inner self*, it was not as refering to something *holy*, but to the essence of what WE all are, and he was able to communicate it through music.
Lysander, there is when the paradox comes to place, knowing self or essence, means understanding self not only as an *ideal* but as a experiencer in life too.
I think this why his music had such incredible impact in our world, his music talks to all of us, we resonate with it, whatever we may call that.
Is my opinion that Beethoven was a tremendous musical (subjective) communicator, the scope of his communication has reached almost our entire humanity, very few musicians have been able to accomplish that, then something is in his music that we identify with, and for me is our essence.
I know, this is getting into philosophical concepts, and what I expressed is just based in my own perceptions.


Marta

Hi Marta ..Hi Lysander..

I entirely agree with you about he fact that Beethoven's music was an interpreter of "human inside"...and I agree with Marta that few compsers could do such a thing .. I'd like to reinsist that Tchaikovsky for example was on the contrary of Beethoven not in the ability to interpret human feelings ,but in the ambivalence wich was existent between his own expriements in life on one hand and the feelings expressed in his music on the other. I've already given an example in this discussion ,it was his well-known piano concertro no.1...It's full of power ,triumph,etc but those feelings were just in Tchaikovsky's mind -or maybe his dreams-not in reality ..
This is the point ..Beethoven interpreted his own expriements...
Do you agree with me..?


[This message has been edited by Ahmad (edited May 17, 2003).]

[arbaqi]

hi marta:
it is a very strong point of view that beethoven knew his inner self he expressed that ofcourse in his symphony no 5 more than any other composer did.
but was it his inner side or being an ordinary person until late in his life that made him able to know how people will treat an ordinary man wiyhout all these ways of idealism (as it was prevaling that time among educated and high class people who dealt with the musicians and composers after all during that time and were the presumably qualified to do so).
it might be philosophical as you previousely said but it is realy a cause of the great innovation which came to music with this man,

[Marta]

Originally posted by arbaqi:
hi marta:
it is a very strong point of view that beethoven knew his inner self he expressed that ofcourse in his symphony no 5 more than any other composer did.
but was it his inner side or being an ordinary person until late in his life that made him able to know how people will treat an ordinary man wiyhout all these ways of idealism (as it was prevaling that time among educated and high class people who dealt with the musicians and composers after all during that time and were the presumably qualified to do so).
it might be philosophical as you previousely said but it is realy a cause of the great innovation which came to music with this man,

Hi Arbaqi.

I think that you misunderstood me.
What I meant with *inner self*, is the subjective self, which is intrinsic in any human being, ordinary or not.
Now some individuals are able to connect better with their subjective self than others, and are able to translate those connections objectively, as Beethoven did with the language of Music.

What can't be denied is the tremendous impact of his music in our world for 200 years, that transcend cultures and time, and this is for me connecting with the essence of mankind.

Marta

[John Rasmussen]

Very interesting thread!

Some composers write deep from their own heart and touch many by their honesty; Tchaikovsky is one such. Others have some ideal and write to try to realize it; Berlioz and Wagner come to mind. Many others--too many--simply write to make pleasant sounds, like Johann Strauss father and son. Only to a few, such as our Ludwig, is it given to write from and to all humankind's collective soul. When you hear Beethoven--even more when you play Beethoven--you come in touch with all your deepest longings, fears, and joys. That is why he could never be a comfortable person, either as man or as musician.

As to whether composers reflect their own inner or even outer life--it varies. Gustav Mahler is quoted as saying, "Anyone who wants to find out about my life should just listen to my music; it's all there." Igor Stravinsky, on the other hand, went out of his way to avoid putting his personal life into his music; his light, neoclassical Symphony in C was written in the darkest time of his life, when his daughter, his wife and his mother died within a few months of each other. I think of Mahler and Stravinsky as on either end of a continuum from subjective to objective.

[Marta]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Very interesting thread!

Some composers write deep from their own heart and touch many by their honesty; Tchaikovsky is one such. Others have some ideal and write to try to realize it; Berlioz and Wagner come to mind. Many others--too many--simply write to make pleasant sounds, like Johann Strauss father and son. Only to a few, such as our Ludwig, is it given to write from and to all humankind's collective soul. When you hear Beethoven--even more when you play Beethoven--you come in touch with all your deepest longings, fears, and joys. That is why he could never be a comfortable person, either as man or as musician.

As to whether composers reflect their own inner or even outer life--it varies. Gustav Mahler is quoted as saying, "Anyone who wants to find out about my life should just listen to my music; it's all there." Igor Stravinsky, on the other hand, went out of his way to avoid putting his personal life into his music; his light, neoclassical Symphony in C was written in the darkest time of his life, when his daughter, his wife and his mother died within a few months of each other. I think of Mahler and Stravinsky as on either end of a continuum from subjective to objective.

Hi John.

Yes, very interesting thread indeed!

I agree with your comments. I see also in Tchaiskovsky his honesty of expressing his deep feelings and conflicts, as in his fourth and sixth Symphonies.
Very interesting....Mahler and Stravinsky as the two endings of the continuum between subjective and objective..(as objective music can be, which is in itself subjective).
I think that has to do with the composer individual relations to life. As humans each of them had different motivations, beliefs and personalities, and what they wanted to say through their music can very tremendously.
As you pointed out, Mahler was extremely an introspected personality and concern with inner matters (subjective) and Stravinsky probably more an outwardly personality (objective), but I think that both expressed with music what was their relation to life.

John, great comments!!

Marta